Different pricing regimes

[Deanrover]

What would you think of my idea that BBO could charge lower prices for people from poorer countries. Leave any technical difficulties to Fred and uncle Uday. The simple fact is that $x is more expensive to an average Pole than to a Swiss. Meals out, houses and clothes are all cheaper in poorer countries.

 

This policy would be used to lower prices for poor countries NOT to raise them for rich ones. American users would NOT end up spending any more, but Poles would pay less. This seems to make a whole lot of sense.

[inquiry]

If it is doable, this is a nobrainer

[hrothgar]

Price discrimination is a perfectly rational strategy in a non-competitive market.

As I recall, it even has positive effects on social welfare...

 

Go for it.

[Deanrover]

Price discrimination is a perfectly rational strategy in a non-competitive market.

As I recall, it even has positive effects on social welfare...

 

Go for it.

Indeed. Producer surplus is definitely increased, whilst the effect on consumer surplus is ambiguous. however, the net effect on social welfare is positive.

[DrTodd13]

I for one would boycott any tournament using such a pricing scheme. I reject "social welfare" as an end worth striving towards.

[the hog]

Todd are you serious? Next thing you will be telling me is that you like Ayn Rand.

 

PS Who is John Galt?

[Deanrover]

I for one would boycott any tournament using such a pricing scheme. I reject "social welfare" as an end worth striving towards.

Actually the purpose that BBO would be striving towards with this strategy is profit maximisation. Social welfare improvements are an incidental side effect.

[Dwayne]

as with many ideas, wonderful in theory.

 

How shall we police and regulate this? How do we authenticate that the poor buggar is from Albania or really from Albany? His/ her BBO flag? I don't think so.

 

His/ her email address? A good start but...no...wouldnt work.

 

A letter from their government? Nah..too many dodgy regimes around.

 

And while we're at it... what if some blighter on welfare living in a ghetto in East LA wants a game?

 

Might be easier to tax the rich imo.

 

Dwaynerino.

[1eyedjack]

I thought the whole principle is that BBO doesn't charge a bean.

It is the tourney host that charges, and the tourney host that decides the charging policy. BBO's only involvement would be setting in place the software that permits that flexibility, but the exercising of that flexibility would be determined by the host on a tourney by tourney basis. If an individual tourney host does not like the idea then he can just charge a flat rate.

 

OK, BBO does take a cut from the takings, but it is independent of how the takings are marketed. Or so I believe.

 

If it were achievable then I am all for flexibility, but I reckon that it would be a nightmare to program (I am not a programmer, mind), and if I were a tourney host probably would not make use of the facility even if it were provided. If it is a question of assigning priorities I would rank this below a lot of other major changes.

[mink]

if anybody thinks about a discount rate for less wealthy BBO users, we should keep in mind that only credit card holders are able to acquire BBO$ (maybe US citizens have other means). OK, here in Germany anybody who likes can get a credit card provided he has no bad records at the some sort of financial intelligence agency called "Schufa" - and really poor people tend to have bad records there. But even if you can get one, the price is 24 Euros a year (maybe there are cheaper ones) and if you need it only to buy BBO$ (likely in Germany), I would expect you to be not too poor if you get one for this purpose.

 

I expect that credit cards are limited to wealthy people in regions other than North America and western Europe.

 

If this is true, it would not make much sense to offer discount rates for not so wealthy users because you will not find many of them among the credit card holders. And, I have really no idea how to distinguish between rich and poor, even if it made sense. A friend told me about chatting with a lady from India recently, and it turned out that her father was wealthy.

 

Karl

[Dwayne]

A friend told me about chatting with a lady from India recently, and it turned out that her father was wealthy.

 

Not surprising I suppose when there are in excess of 1,000,000,000 people there.

 

Probably even several own their own car too.

 

Makes you wonder if there are any GI Joes who are poor and don't have capped teeth.

 

Life's like that.

 

Dwayneo Polo.

 

....hang on, unless it was mink's friend's father who was turned out to be wealthy.

[bearmum]

Immaterial to me as I don't PAY to play - even though it means I play LESS in BBO since LOTS of tourneys that USED to be free now charge ( albeit only a SMALL amount I agree) -------- but I have decided that I prefer not to pay ANYTHING to play in an online venue :unsure:

[DrTodd13]

Yes, indeed, who is John Galt? Not the people who came up with this idea for sure.

 

While the host may want to maximize profits, they should realize that people may get upset for being charged more just because they have more money. They may end up only having people from the poor countries play and anybody from a rich country shouldl boycott due to the injustice. What is next? Different races being charged different prices and how do you plan on determing who is from what country? If you implement this then everyone will change their country to Ghana or something.

[Deanrover]

In answer to some of your questions

 

Dwayne - leave the technical side to F+U. I am sure they can sort something fairly reliable out. E.g. they get all sorts of technical information about your computer and connection and combined with your Credit Card details they could be quite certain.

 

It would be nice to be able to charge ghetto people less, but unfortunately it is impossible for us to identify them. It would also be nice to charge juniors less, but against difficult to nail down.

 

1eyedjack - yes, it would be down to the tourney host. BBO would divide the World into 3 or 4 groups based on a broad measurement such as Gdp per Capita. You say that hosts would not do this, but it would both increase the size of their tourney and profits so I think that they would. In any case, they have the option. BB would also charge less for BM2000 in developing countries. I suspect that $10 per set it too much for many Poles, and it is a shame that they miss out on a great product as a result. Anything else that people may be able to charge for such as pay-to-kib, teaching, lectures, personal ads etc. could also use this scheme.

 

Mink - BBO also accepts Debit Cards which are free. You have to be 16 to hold one (in the UK at least) and anyone can get one. Of course there are rich and poor in every country, but on average the average citizen of Baltimore can afford more than those of Baghdad.

[Deanrover]

Yes, indeed, who is John Galt?  Not the people who came up with this idea for sure.

 

While the host may want to maximize profits, they should realize that people may get upset for being charged more just because they have more money.  They may end up only having people from the poor countries play and anybody from a rich country shouldl boycott due to the injustice.  What is next?  Different races being charged different prices and how do you plan on determing who is from what country?  If you implement this then everyone will change their country to Ghana or something.

 

Dean's reply edited out ( uday )

[hotShot]

Well you can get the country/town of an internet user by tracerouting his IP-address.

 

But those poor people you have in mind have computers, internet access, a credit card and time to play bridge?

 

I don't think so. Even in that counties you might have thought about there are some privileged people who can more than afford a tourney.

 

Nevertheless I don't play payed tournaments, so i hope other like me manage tourneys and play in those that are free.

 

Have a nice day

[1eyedjack]

Deanrover, this is a highly uninformed and doubtless prejudiced idea, but it occurs to me that those who are interested in playing on BBO from disadvantaged or undeveloped areas are probably the "elite" of those areas and may well be more wealthy than the run-of-the-mill players from developed countries.

 

I am not justifying or defending that state of affairs, and only suggesting that it may be accurate. No flames, please.

[Deanrover]

1eyedjack: you are doubtlessly correct. The average wealth of computer users in any country is larger than the average wealth for non-computer users. However, the average wealth of a computer user in Montreal will still be higher than that of one in Thailand.

[sceptic]

having been to thailand, I doubt that statement is correct there is a lot of money out there and anyonbe with a comp is genereally much wealthier in relation to some one out there without one, they can probably afford spellchecker and I kant

[Deanrover]

Most Thais won't own PCs. However internet cafes are VERY cheap and popular out there. Great country btw.

[Brandal]

"I suspect that $10 per set it too much for many Poles, and it is a shame that they miss out on a great product as a result."

 

In my opinion a free tournament with 100 pairs is a better product than a paid tournament with 10-20 pairs,because the scoring would be more accurate the more tables in the tournament.With say 10 scores on the sheet you leave alot more to luck than with 50 scores.....

 

I've even seen 1 table paid tournament,those must be a blast.....

 

It would instigate more paid tournaments,and I am against pay-to-play tourneys.

More cheating,more annoyed when someone at table or me disconnected and replaced,more "heat" from annoyed partners........I honestly don't see a positive thing for me(the player). :D

[fred]

I really do not understand the people who clearly express a

"I will not play in pay tourneys" attitude.

 

Why not? If you can't afford it I understand (but I don't think

anyone has made this point). If you believe that our current

group of pay tourneys do not add enough "extra value" to

make them worth the price, I also understand, but I don't

think this is about value.

 

Instead the general attitude of this group seems to be "I won't

play in pay tourneys on principle".

 

What principle?

 

Suppose that an imaginary pay tourney cost 5 cents to play in,

you were guaranteed good TDs, and, after the tourney, a famous

expert player talked about the hands in a chat room with all

of the participants. Furthermore, you received an "annotated

bridge movie" containing all the hands you played and had a

chance to win a monthly $1000 drawing.

 

I would hope that such a tournament would represent great

value to just about all of our members. If you had a choice of

playing in a random free tournament or spending 5 cents to

play in the imaginary tourney I described, would you really

play in the free tourney? If so, why?

 

Even if you feel that our current pay tourneys do not represent

good value for you, there is still a case to be made for playing in

them once in a while: doing so helps support BBO.

 

Do you feel that the fact that you happen to have a pulse "entitles"

you to a free, high-quality, online bridge service?

 

Do you feel it is your right to phone me on my toll free number

(ie I pay for the call) every time "waiting for response from server"

takes longer than usual (and then be rude to me when I tell you that

you will have to just sit there and wait for the server to respond)?

Is it reasonable for you to make design suggestions to Uday (whose

time is woth at least $100 an hour and who has probably put in

close to 10,000 upaid hours working on BBO - you do the math)

and then get angry at his polite response "thanks for the suggestion,

but we have good reasons for our design in this area"?

 

Many people ask us how we keep BBO free. Here's how:

 

Our dollars costs are less than $10,000 per year. We are very

fortunate that this does not mean a lot of money for any of us

(I make more than this by playing professionally at a typical

ACBL Nationals).

 

Furthermore, we want BBO to be free and we can PROMISE you

that it will remain free as long we can afford to keep it that way.

It is our SINCERE hope that this will be "forever".

 

BBO is cheap to run in terms of dollars, but our time costs are

significant. If we had to pay Uday, myself, Sheri, all the yellows,

Roland and all the vugraph commentators and operators, the

person who handles abuse (close to a full time job and a miserable

job - 3 cheers for Rain for taking a turn at this) and hire a real

manager to run our company like a real business, our costs would

be well over $1 million per year.

 

In other words, you are getting a lot for nothing.

 

Many, many people actually realize this and we greatly appreciate

every one of the many kind thank-yous and compliments that we

receive from these people. We also appreciate that a lot of these

people make an effort to buy one of our software products or play

in some of our pay tournaments if, for no other reason, then to make

an effort to "give something back".

 

That other group of people, the "I won't pay to play in tourneys"

crowd either have not considered the issues in this post or they

do not agree with them. In either case, I hope this post will result

in some of you people at least thinking about it.

 

If every BBO player who could easily afford to do so played in

one $1 pay tourney every 2 weeks (or bought a set of Bridge

Master hands every few months, or...), it would make a big

difference to our lives. It won't make a big difference to yours.

 

As a bonus, supporting BBO by participating in the BB$ economy,

results in better software and better service for everyone.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

 

PS Please feel free to criticize this post. You won't get banned.

[DrTodd13]

Yes, indeed, who is John Galt?  Not the people who came up with this idea for sure.

 

While the host may want to maximize profits, they should realize that people may get upset for being charged more just because they have more money.  They may end up only having people from the poor countries play and anybody from a rich country shouldl boycott due to the injustice.  What is next?  Different races being charged different prices and how do you plan on determing who is from what country?  If you implement this then everyone will change their country to Ghana or something.

Todd - presumably you never go to the cinema, because they employ "ageist" pricing strategies such discounts for students, children and Oaps. Presumably family discounts are homophobic, asexualphobic and infertilephobic? Presumably you don't have any car insurance because they charge more for men, what a terribly sexist thing to do!

Nope, I never go to the cinema. I have to have car insurance because that is mandated by law. I don't even have a problem with different car insurance premiums because statistically men have more accidents. I don't blame these places that charge different rates because I believe in freedom and they can discriminate however they want. However, I have the power to discriminate as well and I use it to boycott people who employ such policies.

[Deanrover]

Yes, indeed, who is John Galt?  Not the people who came up with this idea for sure.

 

While the host may want to maximize profits, they should realize that people may get upset for being charged more just because they have more money.  They may end up only having people from the poor countries play and anybody from a rich country shouldl boycott due to the injustice.  What is next?  Different races being charged different prices and how do you plan on determing who is from what country?  If you implement this then everyone will change their country to Ghana or something.

Todd - presumably you never go to the cinema, because they employ "ageist" pricing strategies such discounts for students, children and Oaps. Presumably family discounts are homophobic, asexualphobic and infertilephobic? Presumably you don't have any car insurance because they charge more for men, what a terribly sexist thing to do!

Nope, I never go to the cinema. I have to have car insurance because that is mandated by law. I don't even have a problem with different car insurance premiums because statistically men have more accidents. I don't blame these places that charge different rates because I believe in freedom and they can discriminate however they want. However, I have the power to discriminate as well and I use it to boycott people who employ such policies.

I never knew that car insurance was mandated by law. My brother does not drive, so he does not have car insurance, but he is clearly a criminal so I'll go call the police. Think how much more a young male pays that a middle aged woman for car insurance. Over a live time of driving you will probably have to spend at least $2000 more insurance due to not being the right age, right sex, living in the right area etc. But you seem perfectly happy to do this. Yet when the idea that BBO might charge 50 cents less for a tourney for people from Poland, a people who are poor through no fault of their own rather 50 years of Nazi and Communist oppresion, you are suddenly appalled. Presumably when you want to go to the theatre, or a sports match, or buy some clothes you go to the store and ask "do you do family/young persons/OAP discounts?" and when they say "Yes" you refuse to purchase their product. Presumably you have never ever played at a real life bridge club because the 99% chance is that they offer some sort of age based discounts.

[guggie]

Answer to Fred: I think BBO is really great and I surely appreciate it and would be very willing to pay for it.

One of the things I like most is the idea that BBO is created out of passion for the brdige game, with the goal to improve on bridge all around. I have the feeling that you really care about making internetbridge possible for countries where economics is less developed.

I would not mind paying for BBO.

I have bought bbo dollars to participate in the tournamnets of \Mirjam_3 as she is my friend. Also I have done one ACBL tournament but that really is no fun for europeans.

What I dislike about the payed tournaments is that they dont make any other impression than being created for making money, whilst thannouncements suggest it is high quality. So far it is not any better quality than other tournaments. Well be honest than and say you wan to make money.