Quick poll: quantitative / RKC

[mike777]

I think both sides have made a great argument..

 

 

For me the main issue is that......all or almost all partnerships are "new" and have not discussed this.

 

 

If you guys have only played with one pard.....even 50% of the last 12 months ..ok....

 

 

I assume much much less.

 

Let me go out on a limb....

 

 

You are playing a wc event.....you have played little in total bridge the last 24 months.

[gszeszycki]

BALANCED OPPOSITE BALANCED quatitative bids make a fair amount of sense

because the contract being arrived at is based primarily on POWER alone.

When UNBALANCED hands (or a trump fit is discovered) such quatitative bidding is way less accurate due to the extra trick taking ability of trump suits in general or the extra length inherent in an unbalanced hand.

 

As an exercise will someone PLEASE concoct a hand where they feel 4n quantitative is the RIGHT BID after 1d 1h 3d. Saying something is THEORETICALLY correct is fine as long as one can properly IMAGINE how to properly use that theory to arrive at intelligent contracts. I can concoct a TON of hands where I would want 4n to be rkc for ex

 

 

x AKQJx xxx Axxx where i can play 5 6 or 7

x KQJxx Qxx AKxx where i can play 5 6 or 7

[aguahombre]

When UNBALANCED hands (or a trump fit is discovered) such quatitative bidding is way less accurate due to the extra trick taking ability of trump suits in general or the extra length inherent in an unbalanced hand.

 

As an exercise will someone PLEASE concoct a hand where they feel 4n quantitative is the RIGHT BID after 1d 1h 3d. Saying something is THEORETICALLY correct is fine as long as one can properly IMAGINE how to properly use that theory to arrive at intelligent contracts. I can concoct a TON of hands where I would want 4n to be rkc for ex

 

 

x AKQJx xxx Axxx  where i can play 5 6 or 7

x KQJxx Qxx AKxx  where i can play 5 6 or 7

Since most of these folks have another RKC bid for the minor, what you are really saying is that 4NT is not quantitative, but impossible ---unless it is some kind of combination of RKC and extra trump asking bid, and I don't know what the replies would be to that kind of question.

[gnasher]

Since most of these folks have another RKC bid for the minor, what you are really saying is that 4NT is not quantitative, but impossible ---unless it is some kind of combination of RKC and extra trump asking bid, and I don't know what the replies would be to that kind of question.

I don't have a RKCB bid which isn't 4NT, because I don't need one. Over 3♦, if I wanted to bid RKCB, I would bid 4♣, which is a cue-bid. Partner would then bid 4♦, 4♥ or 4♠, and I would bid 4NT RKCB.

[aguahombre]

Yep, I guess I should have said "another way of bidding RKC for the minor rather than a direct jump to 4NT", but the point is the same.

[gnasher]

As an exercise will someone PLEASE concoct a hand where they feel 4n quantitative is the RIGHT BID after 1d 1h 3d.

Here is an EXAMPLE of a HAND where I would BID 4NT

 

KJx AQxx xxx Kxx

 

That IS, A hand where WE'RE likely TO belong IN notrumps, I know that my HAND should BE declarer, and I don't kNOw wHeThEr wE HavE enough tricks for a slAM.

 

I can concoct a TON of hands where I would want 4n to be rkc for ex

 

x AKQJx xxx Axxx  where i can play 5 6 or 7

x KQJxx Qxx AKxx  where i can play 5 6 or 7

The auction isn't going to suddenly end if you bid 4♣. Nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't be able to bid Keycard on these hands, but only that it costs nothing to have to agree diamonds before doing so.

 

On your second hand, incidentally, I'm not sure how a keycard 4NT is going to let you play at the five-level, unless you're planning to play it in hearts.

[bluecalm]

4NT = natural invite.

There is a very simple and useful rule: If no suit is agreed jump to 4NT is natural slam invite. If you want RKC just set the trumps one way or the other.

If we showed 7+ card major 4NT is rkc in that suit because bypassing 4M is pointless. Simple logic again.

I guess we live in different bridge world but absolutely none of my bridge friends would take 4NT as rkc here. It just doesn't make sense without some special agreements and ton of discussion about what you do with natural balanced invite if you don't have natural 4NT available in various situations.

This is especially important in "standard" like systems where 3♦ has very wide strength range.

[gszeszycki]

1. bidding goes 1d 1h 3d what do you bid with say xxx AKxx Kxx xxx

 

tell me 4d isnt invitational and can be passed

 

2. the whole POINT of cue bidding is to express interest in slam AND convey the message that the cuebidder cannot use methods such as rkc due to the nature of their hand. Thus it is VERY important to have normal methods like RKC available for those instances where one hand DOES have the power to use it wisely.

 

3. I cannot imagine ANY hand where 4N is necessary to show slam interest because it is virtually impossible to have such a hand and NOT be able to cue bid to show slam interest.

 

4. Jumping to 4n to show some nebulous 14 count as an invite takes up a HUGE amount of space that could be put to better use cuebidding.

 

5. FINAL KEY POINT after beginning a cue bidding sequence one can then bid 4n to show a MINIMUM invite but in the interim just starting a cue bidding sequence might enable partner to intelligently continue. for EX:

1d 1h 3d 4c (cue bidding because cannot use rkc intelligently) 4s (opener is cue bididng because they cannot use rkc intelligently BUT the 4c cue bid alone might allow opener to jump to 4N RKC) 4N (no not suddenly rkc) but balanced quatitative slam try ----you might be no better off than if you had immediately JUMPED to 4N but you MIGHT and that is the whole point of not wasting valuable bidding space merely to mark time until you can THEN use RKC when it should have been available all along immediately :)

[gnasher]

Do YOU think THAT writing ALL your POSTS like THIS makes PEOPLE more OR less WILLING to READ them?

[campboy]

5. FINAL KEY POINT after beginning a cue bidding sequence one can then bid 4n to show a MINIMUM invite but in the interim just starting a cue bidding sequence might enable partner to intelligently continue. for EX:

1d 1h 3d 4c (cue bidding because cannot use rkc intelligently) 4s (opener is cue bididng because they cannot use rkc intelligently BUT the 4c cue bid alone might allow opener to jump to 4N RKC) 4N (no not suddenly rkc) but balanced quatitative slam try ----you might be no better off than if you had immediately JUMPED to 4N but you MIGHT and that is the whole point of not wasting valuable bidding space merely to mark time until you can THEN use RKC when it should have been available all along immediately :)

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems wrong to me. Why can't you have a hand which isn't suitable for keycard immediately, but is once partner shows a spade control?

 

@gnasher: I just assumed he used to write DIALOGUE for Marvel COMICS :blink:

[bluecalm]

the whole POINT of cue biddin

 

NOT be able to cue bid to show slam interest.

 

put to better use cuebidding.

 

To use cuebids you need to have agreed suit. Jump to 4NT is useful as natural slam try in NT, not in diamonds. This is especially useful at MP's (beacause there aren't that many hands which can't set up diamonds and want to invite slam at IMPs, not to say there aren't any).

 

d 1h 3d 4c (cue bidding because cannot use rkc intelligently) 4s (opener is cue bididng because they cannot use rkc intelligently BUT the 4c cue bid alone might allow opener to jump to 4N RKC) 4N (no not suddenly rkc) but balanced quatitative slam try

 

No insult but it seems like you need some basic education in standard bidding theory.

If you use 4NT after cuebids it should be always RKC unless you have some special agreements.

Also how the hell is opener supposed to "use rkc" intelligently as he knows almost nothing at all about responder's hand after 4♣ cuebid, he just bids 4♠ in your example to deny ♥ control and to show ♠ control.

[Free]

Do YOU think THAT writing ALL your POSTS like THIS makes PEOPLE more OR less WILLING to READ them?

I agree, underlining is waaaaaaaaaaaay better!

[pooltuna]

Do YOU think THAT writing ALL your POSTS like THIS makes PEOPLE more OR less WILLING to READ them?

I agree, underlining is waaaaaaaaaaaay better!

almost as good as using color

[gszeszycki]

In my ex sequence resoponder would never be in position to use rkc because they would have no clue if the spade control shown was shortness or power (opener is known to be unbalanced). The whole point I was trying to make was that unbalanced hands (even one opposite balanced) can enjoy remarkably accurate and safe slam bidding as long as they do not waste bidding space jumping around and telling p little or nothing. In my example opener shows slam interest if responder can control hearts but they may never have ventured to search for slam if bidding went 1d 1h 3d 4n because such a search for slam might no longer be safe:)

 

My apologies for my points of emphasis being said in caps. Many of my sentences are runons and i find caps bring important points together better than creating new sentences. Apparently they can elicit some sarcasm because they distract some from arguing the logic and commenting on how the text was presented.

[mike777]

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right?  Only way to stop in partial is pass?

Yes everything (including 3S) is forcing, and 4N is quant. However if you have not discussed this auction be aware that 99 % of people at least would take it as keycard. If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

y...well said...for so young person

[jdeegan]

:unsure: Uh... 4NT as an invite opposite a long diamond suit and not much else??? What do I accept with??? Quantitative 4NT works with two balanced hands facing one another where point count bidding works rather well. A combined 31 HCP - not so good for six - 33HCP usually OK.

With a six or seven-bagger as the principle source of tricks - controls and fitting cards in the long suit(s) are what you need. You might say a direct 4NT is an idle bid since a forcing suit bid followed by 4NT is always available. Meckwell may have assigned a special meaning to this auction, but for most of us, the aforementioned 99%, it is RKC for diamonds. Plus, there is real merit in keeping the opponents in the dark with a short auction.

[bluecalm]

You might say a direct 4NT is an idle bid

 

Assuming we play "classical" 3♦ which is about 14+-17hcp what do you plan to bid with:

 

AQTx AJTx x KQJx ?

 

Or at MP's with :

 

AJxx AQxx xx AJ9x ?

 

How do you plan to stop in NT contract if slam is no good ?

Why would you intentionally cripple yourself by not having natural 4NT available choosing RKC instead which gain nothing as you can use RKC anyway (by setting diamonds and then bidding 4NT)

 

What do I accept with???

 

With solid/semisolid diamond suit which will be source of tricks opposite likely shortness/xx ?

[gszeszycki]

the 2 examples shown by blue calm are perfect for delaying the 4n bid

until after cue bidding first round. In both cases after 3d bid 3s if p bids 3n then bid 4n quatitative if p bids 4d showing minimum bid 4n as sign off

[cloa513]

What about something like [hv=s=skxxhakqxxxxdckxx]133|100|[/hv]? Do you keep bidding hearts and risk partner fighting you for the trump suit -4♥ might be OK but could you miss slam with that bid?

[gszeszycki]

A xx KQJ AQJxxxx

Kxx AKQxxxx void Kxx

 

1c 1h 3c

3d remember p thinks we are looking for nt first

3n spades stopped a 3s bid would have been asking for partial stop)

4c obvious slam interest

4d control

4s control

5c no heart control sign off try AND worries about heart stops for nt

this bid allows you to convert clubs to hearts at whatever level u

decide to play p has 2/3 small hearts.

5h delayed heart control grand slam try we are forced to 6c

5n two of top 3 club honors

7h just remember an opening lead ruff might be more dangerous in hearts than in clubs