Quick poll: quantitative / RKC

[Stephen Tu]

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right? Only way to stop in partial is pass?

[Little Kid]

Quant for me, would go via 4♦ to rkc. I would assume anything but pass is GF.

[mohitz]

Quant for me also.

[P_Marlowe]

RKCB.

 

If we assume, that a quant. 4NT is based on at least 2 diamonds,

we have a fit for diamons, so I dont see the reason to play 4NT as

quantitative, if we belong in 6NT we will be able to find this out in

time.

 

And yes - if we bid on, we are playing at least game.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: It may be different, if you play Minorwood, but even than I would

prefer a different meaning to 4NT than quantitative.

[TylerE]

RKC if not playing minorwood.

Obv. quant if you have another keycard bid.

[Jlall]

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right? Only way to stop in partial is pass?

Yes everything (including 3S) is forcing, and 4N is quant. However if you have not discussed this auction be aware that 99 % of people at least would take it as keycard. If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

[jjbrr]

Ya playing with a random I would expect him to be wanting to know my keycards for sure, and if i bid it i'd expect to get some response at the 5-level.

 

playing with a non-random, this is quantitative. Agree everything is forcing below game.

[Phil]

Kind of like playing with a random I would expect

 

1♠ - 1N

3♠ - 4♣

 

is a suit, not a control.

 

Agree that 4N is quantitative.

[H_KARLUK]

Quantitative but w/o agreement RKC diamonds

[peachy]

Playing with random partner, expect all 4NT to be Blackwood or RKC, whether trump has been agreed or not. But this particular auction should be clear enough even to a random as an invite when there are multitudes of forcing bids and raise available between 3D and 4NT.

[kgr]

Quant.

Because I can set ♦'s in a forcing way.

[MarkDean]

Definitely quant for me.

This is really easy in two of my partnerships where we agreed there is no way to ask key cards in a minor.

[jillybean]

Quantitative but expect a KC response :(

In my partnership 4♦ asks for keycards here.

[jdonn]

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right?  Only way to stop in partial is pass?

Yes everything (including 3S) is forcing, and 4N is quant. However if you have not discussed this auction be aware that 99 % of people at least would take it as keycard. If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

Lol Justin is talking about practically the first live hand we ever played together in Reno we bid

 

1♦ 1♠

2♣ 2♥

3♣ 4NT

 

and I knew it was natural. But with almost anyone else I take it as rkc even though I know it shouldn't be simply because I expect that's how they take it. :(

[aguahombre]

Ok, assuming the exact auction makes 4NT quant. What would be the expert follow-ups? Certainly there must be some subtleties, other than just accept or not.

 

If one does not pass 4NT, do they answer aces anyway, show an extra trick source, what? What we do kind of sucks so I won't put it out there, but at least we do something.

[CSGibson]

The OP is awesome, I'm assuming there was a disaster where someone bid 4♦, attempting to set trump so that 4N would be keycard after a cue-bid, and then the opener passed the 4♦ bid.

 

The subsequent discussion of the hand was something like the 4♦ bidder explaining his reasoning, and opener stating "if you wanted to ask for key cards, bid 4N", followed by the inevitable "4N is quantitative", and disagreement ensued, thus, poll.

 

As for what the bids mean, and whether follow-ups after 3♦ are forcing, I'd say it depends on your agreements, and that there is no single standard way to play it, but I prefer the 4N quant, 4♦ forcing method, personally.

[Little Kid]

Ok, assuming the exact auction makes 4NT quant. What would be the expert follow-ups? Certainly there must be some subtleties, other than just accept or not.

 

After something like 1NT-4NT it definitely seems like you should have a way to find the best strain for slam. Maybe bidding 5-card suits at the 6-level as Pass/Correct and 5NT as asking for 4-card suits. This still leaves the 5-level open for things like keycards or ways to distinguish between suit quality. I have no idea what is standard here and would be curious to find out too and more specifically this kind of auction.

[Cascade]

If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

And I thought he was one in a million. :blink:

[Jlall]

As for what the bids mean, and whether follow-ups after 3♦ are forcing, I'd say it depends on your agreements, and that there is no single standard way to play it, but I prefer the 4N quant, 4♦ forcing method, personally.

Im fine with saying there is no standard for what 4N means, or even that standard is that it's keycard, but I cannot imagine any reasonable definition of "standard" where 3S and 4D are not forcing bids.

[gnasher]

Ok, assuming the exact auction makes 4NT quant.  What would be the expert follow-ups?  Certainly there must be some subtleties, other than just accept or not.

New suits and responder's major are cue-bids, suggesting that diamonds be trumps and, presumably, the possibility of a grand slam. 5♦ is to play.

 

If one does not pass 4NT, do they answer aces anyway

Giving a Blackwood response to what's known to be a natural 4NT isn't particularly useful - if you're so short of aces that you're worried, you're unlikely to have an acceptance of the invitation anyway.

 

If, on the other hand, you're prone to misunderstandings about 4NT, it's a good idea to agree that suit responses to a an invitational 4NT are Keycard responses for the most likely suit. That saves you from UI problems when your partner explains your natural 4NT as Keycard.

[CSGibson]

As for what the bids mean, and whether follow-ups after 3♦ are forcing, I'd say it depends on your agreements, and that there is no single standard way to play it, but I prefer the 4N quant, 4♦ forcing method, personally.

Im fine with saying there is no standard for what 4N means, or even that standard is that it's keycard, but I cannot imagine any reasonable definition of "standard" where 3S and 4D are not forcing bids.

true for 3♠, but I bet in a pick-up partnership it wouldn't come as a shock for them to pass 4♦

[Stephen Tu]

The OP is awesome, I'm assuming there was a disaster where someone bid 4♦, attempting to set trump so that 4N would be keycard after a cue-bid, and then the opener passed the 4♦ bid.

 

Wrong guess. Partner bid 4nt over 3d, I passed, as I had stretched a bit for 3d. I was practicing with a much weaker partner who I'm teaching, was pretty sure it was intended as RKC (and was right), but wanted to introduce the idea that not all 4nt bids are ace asking. I just wanted to confirm I wasn't teaching some idea that's totally nuts.

 

Interesting hand though, partner held something like AKQ AKQx xxx Qxx. This is awkward, because it seems impossible to be able to bid RKC unless 4d is RKC, partner going to bid 100% 5c/5d. So how to find out if partner have

xx xx AKQJxx AJx

or

Jx xx AQJTxx AKJ

??

 

Another question is if 1d-1h-2d, is 4nt RKC then? Or do you have to 3rd suit/agree D then 4nt?

[aguahombre]

Giving a Blackwood response to what's known to be a natural 4NT isn't particularly useful - if you're so short of aces that you're worried, you're unlikely to have an acceptance of the invitation anyway.

 

I wasn't thinking of "worry" as the reason for responding Aces. Was thinking about having an extra diamond, and responding KC for diamonds, in case partner can count 13 tricks with that information or after probing for another nice card.

 

If the partner of the 4NT (quant) bidder has not shown a suit of some length, on another auction, then things would be different.

 

However, the point about 5D being to play is interesting. A hand that fudged on strength because of an extra diamond and is afraid of notrump? If 5D is a decline of slam, the KeyCard thing would have to be adjusted.

[dburn]

Would have more sympathy with the notion that 4NT is natural if I could picture what it showed, or what opener was supposed to do about it with various hands.

 

Certainly would not respond keycards to a natural 4NT - whatever else 4NT does, it invites me to place the contract (since presumably 1♣-1♥-3♣-4NT is also natural, and I can't show keycards over that). But would not worry about reaching seven - there is no hand on which responder can be prepared for me to pass 4NT where we can make seven diamonds.

 

If you want to play 4NT as natural, you should as a minimum agree that it shows (or denies) a certain number of keycards for diamonds, otherwise opener will not have a clue what to do.

 

But for me, 4NT is keycard for diamonds (just as 1♥-1♠-3♥-4NT is keycard for hearts, and so on and so forth). Now, I agree that it is better to use other bids (such as 4♦ or 4♥) as keycard for diamonds, but if the OP had those available, the question would not have been asked. Still, if you want to play 4NT as natural there is an awful lot of discussion you need to have beforehand, and if you and I haven't had it, 4NT is Blackwood.

[gnasher]

Would have more sympathy with the notion that 4NT is natural if I could picture what it showed, or what opener was supposed to do about it with various hands.

 

If you want to play 4NT as natural, you should as a minimum agree that it shows (or denies) a certain number of keycards for diamonds, otherwise opener will not have a clue what to do.

When we bid 1NT-4NT, that doesn't show or deny a specific number of controls. It asks opener whether he has a good hand in the context of the auction so far. One of the factors opener considers is the number of aces he has, but he pays more attention to his overall playing strength. Occasionally this leads to a slam missing two aces, but we accept that risk because it's outweighed by the the benefit of being able to consult opener.

 

Why is this sequence any different? Opener's bid has a wider range than a 1NT opening, and initiating a cue-bidding sequence will not usually tell responder where opener's hand lies within that range.

But for me, 4NT is keycard for diamonds (just as 1♥-1♠-3♥-4NT is keycard for hearts, and so on and so forth). Now, I agree that it is better to use other bids (such as 4♦ or 4♥) as keycard for diamonds

But in both sequences you can cue-bid and then bid 4NT. I know that the slower sequence may lead to some leakage of information, but it still seems wasteful to have two ways to show the same (fairly rare) hand.