Responding to take out double

[Cyberyeti]

I've seen various threads across a lot of these forums about responding to a takeout double on lots of hands where I would simply cuebid, but nobody even mentions this in the replies. What I'm trying to get is a modern expert take on what this means (particularly stateside).

 

So what does say 1♦(nat)-X-P-2♦ show ?

[Free]

Not sure if this is what experts all over the world play, but I play this as 4-4M (or some very strong hand without another call).

[helene_t]

It asks more than it shows.

 

It is any GF hand that cannot commit to game immediately, but also certain invitational hands. Which ones depend on partnership agreement.

 

I think most Dutch experts play that with 9-10 points and one 4-card major you bid 2♦. So partner must bid 4-cards up the line so that we can stop in 2♥ if partner has a minimum with 4-4 majors and we have hearts only.

 

I think most NA experts play 2♦ as forcing to suit agreement. So with 9-10 points and one four-card major you respond 2M, not 2♦.

[whereagles]

There are a couple of ways to play this bid. I learned it in two ways:

 

1. 8-10 and both majors OR 11+ and a 4-card major, forcing up to 3M (with 8-10 and 1 major only, you bid it at the 2 level)

 

2. 11+ and a 4-card major, forcing to 2NT (with 8-10 and both majors bid a jump-cue)

 

I think interpretation 1 is more common.

[kgr]

I play:

2M: 5cM and limit

2♦: 4c major (or both), limit or better or GF with 5-card Maj

[gwnn]

2D can't just show stuff about the majors. How are you going to bid a good hand with clubs?

 

in the partnership where we specifically defined these cuebids we said it's either invitational with both majors or game forcing (with the other minor or a major or other hands). If the cue was over a major then inv with both minors or GF.

 

I prefer to say that it is forcing to suit agreement and then most sequences will untangle themselves automatically. Like stayman, or 2D over Drury, it would be difficult to define in a satisfactory manner the group of hands that make this cuebid.

[gwnn]

Koen that's interesting I always wanted to make jump advances to be 5+ cards. But don't you get into trouble when you have 4 hearts and 8 points and partner has 12 points with some 4324? You play 2NT there?

[hanp]

Dutch style:

 

(1D) - dbl - (p) - 2D shows at least invitational strength. In order to establish a gameforcing, one player has to jump or cuebid.

[kgr]

Koen that's interesting I always wanted to make jump advances to be 5+ cards. But don't you get into trouble when you have 4 hearts and 8 points and partner has 12 points with some 4324? You play 2NT there?

Yes.

With less then 15pts partner bids his Major. If that is Spades in our short suit we have to bid 2NT to play. Even more a problem if we also don't have a stopper.

[helene_t]

I think if you play Dutch style you still have to bid 2♥ instead of 2♦ with some hands with four hearts when you can't handle a 2♠ bid.

 

But they do make a simple 1M response with 8 points and some 9 points hands.

[gwnn]

And what do you do with 3325? I guess you just bid 2H? I mean its a problem for 'forcing to suit agreement' too but at least there are a little more hcp then.

[gnasher]

And what do you do with 3325?

You play

  1♦ dbl pass 2♦

  pass 2NT

as Lebensohl.

 

Similarly

  1♥ dbl pass 2♥

  pass 2NT

should be scrambling with a minimum.

 

This probably isn't Dutch standard yet.

[helene_t]

hmmmm .... seems like it could easily wrong-side 3NT.

[Codo]

The French stlye- and what I learned first:

 

2 ♦ shows bith majors 8-10 or 11+ any GF hand which is not biddable with a natural bid.

[kgr]

And what do you do with 3325? I guess you just bid 2H? I mean its a problem for 'forcing to suit agreement' too but at least there are a little more hcp then.

If less then 15 pts:

(1D)-DBL-(Pass)-2D

(Pass)-2H

[whereagles]

2D can't just show stuff about the majors. How are you going to bid a good hand with clubs?

Right. That meaning is also possible in any of the two styles. Priority for opener is to bid a 4-card major, though.

[Free]

2D can't just show stuff about the majors. How are you going to bid a good hand with clubs?

With 1 Major you can just bid the Major. If I only have ♣, I guess I can just bid ♣. :ph34r:

[gwnn]

Free: I replied to kgr and whereagles mostly but why do you have an issue with my post when you yourself added

(or some very strong hand without another call)

?

[mikeh]

I think that it NA it is common, to the point that I would think of it as standard, but I may be wrong there, that the 2♦ cue bid says absolutely nothing about any suit at all: it is a sign of strength. Call it 11+.

 

It is forcing until a suit has been bid and raised, or to game.

 

I can see that using it as helene suggested early in the thread maximizes the chances of finding a 4=4 major fit when opener is 4=3 or 3=4, but, maybe because we are all more comfortable with methods we learned a long time ago, I prefer knowing that 2♦ is always strong....if we find a 4-3 fit on a partscore hand, with the 3 card holding in the short diamond hand, that won't usually be too bad: meanwhile we gain accuracy on the game and slam hands, since doubler won't have to waste a level of bidding over 2♦ by having to jump or recue with a good hand.

[dake50]

This is a good situation for transfers. So 2D ->H; with 1H ->S; 1S ->C; 2C ->D (~4441 +2xA).

Decide super-accept means, non-accept means, which hands won't start X.