I don't have a bid here, do you?

[Fluffy]

♠AKx

♥Q9xx

♦Qxx

♣Jxx

 

 

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2♥-???

[jillybean]

Why wouldn't 4th suit game forcing apply in this sequence, or must partner bid 3♥ to force game?

[Echognome]

3♦

[Jlall]

2N, whats the problem? If partner has a stiff club he's not gonna bid 3N. If we are already too high you can blame your 2C bid.

[Echognome]

Funny. I assumed 2♣ was GF. If it's simply F1, then I change to 2N.

[Jlall]

Funny. I assumed 2♣ was GF. If it's simply F1, then I change to 2N.

Yeah I assumed GF also I meant if game is too high blame our 2C bid heh

[kenrexford]

Way too little info, and yet a few responses. Weird.

 

1. I assume 2♣ was one-round force. Otherwise, poor call.

 

2. What did Opener show for his 1♠ call? Is 4333 possible? Does this promise at least 4-4 in the blacks? Or, does this show unbalanced (5+ clubs, 4 spades)?

 

I mean, for me, Opener has shown 4351 pattern, or so. Why would I bid 2NT opposite that hand? Stiff opposite Jxx doesn't seem good for notrump. 3♦ would seem to stand out.

 

I'm not exactly sure why I'm bidding 2♣ anyway, whatever it shows. But, whatever.

[nige1]

♠ AKx ♥ Q9xx ♦ Qxx ♣ Jxx

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2♥-???

IMO 3♦ = 10, 2♠ = 5, 2N = 4

In this context, I feel that notrump bids should show ♣ stops.

[pirate22]

♠AKx

♥Q9xx

♦Qxx

♣Jxx

 

 

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2♥-???

assuming one is ply better minor-or min 4 card diamond.

bidding 1d-1h-1sp-2cl!-2ht now shows pard must be 4s/3h/5d/1cl,

over your 2cl! forcing 1 round-----so i now bid 2sp,and pard will pass,or rebid 3d,if he is 4s/3h/4d/2cl he may pass your two spades,or go to game in 4 spades.

[EricK]

So much depends on overall system.

 

What has opener shown?

For some, this could be a 4-2-4-3 hand with no club stop; for others, it will promise 45 in ♠♦ but could still be showing a doubleton ♥ (usually Hx or better); for others it pretty much guarantees a 4351 hand.

 

What is the agreement on 2♣? For some it is GF; for others it is just 1RF; yet others play a middle ground - eg GF unless opener rebids 2M, and responder doesn't bid NT or higher.

 

In most systems, this hand would be a 3♦ bid. But in others 2♠ or 2NT could be correct.

[mich-b]

3♣ "5th suit forcing" ..

[Hanoi5]

I would have probably bid 2NT over 1♠. Even 1NT sounded better.

 

If partner could understand 3♥ as an invitation I'd bid that, 4♥ right away is another possibility.

 

2NT of coiurse is the best IF partner will bid 3♥ with a singleton club. In my opinion the 1♦-1♠-2♥ sequence already shows 5431 and that's why I preferred to continue with hearts.

 

Does your partner's 1♠ deny a balanced hand?

[Fluffy]

partner could still be balanced on our system.

[aguahombre]

partner could still be balanced on our system.

indeed. Opener could be 4-3-4-2 with a split range up to 19; or 4-3-5-1 with a wide range up to 18.

 

If the responder really had a game force, he could bid a mark-time 2NT after 4sgf to find out more. I guess I would pretend I had a GF and bid 2NT now anyway, hoping for 3NT or 3D by opener to clear up the distribution.

 

The alternatives to the 4th suit bid weren't that wonderful either; 2NT with that great club stopper, but at least showing size and shape; or 3♦, lying about shape but getting the strength right.

[whereagles]

partner could still be balanced on our system.

Then bid 3NT. What else can you have but your actual hand?

 

- you didn't bid hearts, so you don't have 5 of those

- you didn't bid 2NT, so you want to be in game (I take it 2♣ is just F1 round)

- you didn't bid a suit, so you're balanced

 

hence, you're probably balanced with 13-16 or thereabouts, with club problems. Plus, it agrees with Hamman's 3rd rule: "if 3NT is an option.. bid it!"

 

If 3NT is still scares you, you can try forcing stuff like 3♣ or 3♦ and see what happens.

[Phil]

I mean, for me, Opener has shown 4351 pattern, or so. Why would I bid 2NT opposite that hand? Stiff opposite Jxx doesn't seem good for notrump. 3♦ would seem to stand out.

 

I'm not exactly sure why I'm bidding 2♣ anyway, whatever it shows. But, whatever.

Me too. Plus partner should have a little extra.

 

I would raise to 2♥ directly with many non-descript 4342's and rebid 1N with 4333.

 

I hope 2♣ isn't GF. I mean, seriously...

[aguahombre]

I would raise to 2♥ directly with many non-descript 4342's and rebid 1N with 4333.

 

The 4-3-3-3's are out of the mix for us because of the ♦ opening.

Maybe we are oblivious to the times when we landed in 1NT or found our 4-4 spade fit and missed a better 2♥ contract, because we didn't raise hearts with 4-3-4-2.

[Apollo81]

2-way NMF works well in this auction. Playing this, you can bid 2♣...2♠ with this hand type (showing an invite with only 3-card ♠ support and no other good call).

 

With the start you gave us, I would bid 2NT for lack of other options.

[gnasher]

Having to bid 2NT on this hand isn't terrible - it will be wrong only if partner has ♣A10, and perhaps also if he raises to 3NT with a singleton honour in clubs when we could make some other game.

 

It would be a lot worse to have to bid 2NT with AKx Q9xx Kxx xxx. Now the wrongsiding could well be fatal.

 

This isn't a particularly unusual problem - one of the reasons that Fourth Suit Forcing was invented was the need to find a stopper in the unbid suit. The easy answer is to play 3♣ as Fifth Suit Forcing, and play 1♦-1♥;1♠-3♣ as natural.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would have bid 2NT instead of 2C.

Assuming 2C was FSF and GF, than you have to bid 3C,

which ask for a half stopper.

If 2C was FSF, but inv.+, than 2H was min and you can

pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[dburn]

I mean, for me, Opener has shown 4351 pattern, or so.  Why would I bid 2NT opposite that hand?  Stiff opposite Jxx doesn't seem good for notrump.  3♦ would seem to stand out.

 

I'm not exactly sure why I'm bidding 2♣ anyway, whatever it shows.  But, whatever.

Me too. Plus partner should have a little extra.

 

I would raise to 2♥ directly with many non-descript 4342's and rebid 1N with 4333.

 

I hope 2♣ isn't GF. I mean, seriously...

I would raise to 2♥ with many (nay, almost all) nondescript 4=3=5=1s. But if I had a "descript" (i.e. extra values) 4=3=5=1 I would bid 3♥ over 2♣. 2♥ would be reserved for a nondescript 4=2=5=2 with an honour in hearts but not in clubs.

 

As to whether fourth suit should be forcing to game, I could seriously entertain the idea that it should and I could equally seriously entertain the idea that it should not.

 

On the hand as given, if playing fourth suit as not forcing to game I would bid 2♣. Otherwise I would bid 2NT at IMPs and 1NT at matchpoints.

[Siegmund]

If opener really does have a singleton club, we are taking ruffs in the short hand in a heart contract, and I am willing to seriously consider the 4-3 heart fit in preference to notrump or diamonds.

 

With my regular partner, 2H in this auction is specifically 11-12 and 3 hearts (we don't use Drury; instead, we open in 1st or 2nd seat with most hands that want to make a 3-card limit raise if partner has a major), and I would happily pass 2H, expecting my 110 to beat 90 or my 140 to beat 110 or 120.

 

With most other partners, I'd be in a bit of a bind, and my 3rd bid would probably be in diamonds. It'd be nice to bid 3C asking for a half-stopper, the problem is that is going to sound natural.

 

And to the people who think opener might have only 2 hearts: are you serious? Yikes. Not my style and not the way any of the books teach FSF either.

[MickyB]

Yeah opener has shown 4252 in my world. I've never seen 4SF taught in a book advanced enough to deal with the possibility that it is better to raise immediately on a 4351, so it is hardly surprising that their 4SF structures need to cater to it.

[655321]

I would raise to 2♥ with many (nay, almost all) nondescript 4=3=5=1s. But if I had a "descript" (i.e. extra values) 4=3=5=1 I would bid 3♥ over 2♣. 2♥ would be reserved for a nondescript 4=2=5=2 with an honour in hearts but not in clubs.

I play this style too.

 

And to the people who think opener might have only 2 hearts: are you serious? Yikes. Not my style and not the way any of the books teach FSF either.

Up to you, you could choose to reject anything not taught in the Alaskan clubs as clearly not serious, or you could take the opportunity afforded by the forums to learn a new approach. Even if you decide not to play this style it can't hurt to know about it.

[mike777]

♠AKx

♥Q9xx

♦Qxx

♣Jxx

 

 

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2♥-???

prefer 2nt good invite after 1s.

 

 

2nt now whatever 2c means.

 

Prefer 2nt invite over 1s even if 2c is some form of xyz, two way checkback.