Should we open with 11 pts?

[hsheng]

An expert was mad at me because I opened with an 11-point hand and warned me don't do it anymore.

 

It may be hard to say which leads to a better result in practice, opening with 11 pts or not, but there is bad 11 pts and good 11 pts, as shown in the following:

 

♠AJ53

♥K32

♦Q653

♣J742

 

(sry should be:

♠AJ5

♥K32

♦Q65

♣J742)

Compared with

 

♠AJT9

♥K98

♦QT93

♣JT96

 

(should be :

♠AJT

♥K98

♦QT9

♣JT96 )

 

The first scenario is undoubtedly the worst 11 pts and not fit for opening. However, the second one, with a similar pattern though, is of much higher value than the first one and can provide the dealer with a guaranteed opening.

[mike777]

An expert was mad at me because I opened with an 11-point hand and warned me don't do it anymore.

 

It may be hard to say which leads to a better result in practice, opening with 11 pts or not, but there is bad 11 pts and good 11 pts, as shown in the following:

 

♠AJ53

♥K32

♦Q653

♣J742

 

Compared with

 

♠AJT9

♥K98

♦QT93

♣JT96

 

The first scenario is undoubtedly the worst 11 pts and not fit for opening. However, the second one, with a similar pattern though, is of much higher value than the first one and can provide the dealer with a guaranteed opening.

STOP

 

 

WHY NOT WITH YOUR PARTNER DISCUSS IN DEPTH WHAT A ONE LEVEL BID MEANS....

 

 

OK...i UNDERSTAND99.99% WILL NOT.....

 

------------

 

EXAMPLE ONE ONE BID MEANS CRAP

 

 

-----

 

VERY RARE...ONE BID MEANS ALOT......

[nigel_k]

You can always adjust upward or downward. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. Obviously partners should agree this kind if thing but without discussion I would not open a balanced 11 unless it was an upgrade.

 

You didn't give the actual hand you opened so it's hard to say who is right. Also, both your examples have 15 cards.

[Fluffy]

those hands are only 11 HCP but I believe they have a big ton of ZAR points for distribution lol

[aguahombre]

I have always had problems evaluating 4-3-4-4 hands. Also keep thinking I am being yelled at when I read upper case posts.

[neilkaz]

It is nice when the OP reviews his post to make sure that the hands he's posted have 13 cards. Then we can actually engage in a discussion that some of us can learn from.

 

Anyhow..I will assume he's meant to post 4-3-3-3 11 HCP hands.

 

4333 hands tends to suck, especially for suit play since there's often no ruffing value.

 

The first hand is true garbage with no spots and scattered honors and I'd not fault anyone for passing it even playing Precision where he can open 1♦ showing 11-15. However, if you're playing 10-15 then open, since hand 1 is worth about 10 points to me. The first hand is a trivial pass playing SAYC or 2/1 and if my BBO "Expert" pard opens here, it will be a strike against him.

 

The second hand has great spots and will make a superb dummy for 3NT, the most likely game. Even if a suit contract results, there's plenty of added trick taking potential due to those spots. I am very happy to upgrade hand 2 and open 1♣ (assuming 4333..ie the OP hand minus the two small minor suit spot cards) and then forget about ♠ unless pard responds in ♠, and rebid 1NT. I suspect hand 2 may have as much trick taking potential for 3NT as some 13 HCP hands. If my BBO "Expert" pard criticises my choice to open hand 2, I expect it will be 3 strikes against him.

 

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[zasanya]

A good criterion for opening 11 hcp hands is open if 6 losers or less.Do not open if 7 losers or more.More adventurous souls can open with 7 losers but opening a 8 loser 11 hcp hand cannot be recommended.

[aguahombre]

A good criterion for opening 11 hcp hands is open if 6 losers or less.Do not open if 7 losers or more.More adventurous souls can open with 7 losers but opening a 8 loser 11 hcp hand cannot be recommended.

Then your conclusion would be that #2 is a much better 9-loser hand. I assume that means you would not open it even if the club jack were the queen, making it a good 8-loser hand.

 

LTC has always given me problems, but I think AJT9 K9X QT9X QT9X would lure me into opening. (Yes, I am clowning about the two minor suit x's- in case that needed to be said).

 

My resident authority on LTC tells me that it is much better used AFTER a fit has been found, than when deciding whether to open a particular balanced hand.

[gwnn]

15 card hands have a LOT of losers. :)

[aguahombre]

15 card hands have a LOT of losers. :)

But you have extra chances to establish a side suit.

[bluecalm]

LTC is the last thing I would ever base my decision on. Especially when it comes to opening hands.

[awm]

This depends somewhat on your agreements -- some pairs agree to open most 11s and others even pass some 12s.

 

It is worth recognizing that some hands are better than their high card points and others are worse. There's a lot written about this, but the general themes seem to be that: (1) Spot cards like tens and nines count for something (2) 4333 shape is bad, and a five-card suit is good (3) Aces are good, queens and jacks are bad (4) Honors together and in long suits are good, isolated queens or jacks and honors in doubleton suits are bad.

 

My view (playing a fairly standard style) is that I would basically never open a 4333 11-count in first or second seat (in fact I will pass a 4333 12-count if holding both bad spots and no aces). Even if my hand is otherwise good, the very flat shape is not helpful. I would open a rare 4432 11-count (for example AKTx xxx AT9x xx is a reasonable opening bid) but would need both some good spots and concentrated values in my four-card suits. I would open a somewhat larger number of 5332 11-counts provided that the five-card suit is reasonable and I don't have a wasted queen or jack (like I would open AQx xxx xx KQTxx but would pass Qxx Kxx Jx AJTxx despite the good club suit).

[gwnn]

I like control rich 11 counts

I dislike control poor 11 counts

I don't mind opening 4333's as long as there is some honour placement

 

AJTx

Kxx

Kxx

xxx

 

is OK for me to open when NV or maybe even V/V.

 

I prefer 14-16 for this reason :P

[the hog]

I don't see the point of this question. Surely the answer depends on what you have agreed with your partner. In an ideal world I would open all (8)9-12 hands and pass with 13+.

[ggwhiz]

I don't see the point of this question

 

No kidding!

 

I don't open any 15 card hands without at leat a 14 count.

[Fluffy]

15 card hands have a LOT of losers. :(

you are counting them the wrong way, remember the last 2 tricks are always often yours!

[P_Marlowe]

An expert was mad at me because I opened with an 11-point hand and warned me don't do it anymore.

 

It may be hard to say which leads to a better result in practice, opening with 11 pts or not, but there is bad 11 pts and good 11 pts, as shown in the following:

 

♠AJ53

♥K32

♦Q653

♣J742

 

Compared with

 

♠AJT9

♥K98

♦QT93

♣JT96

 

The first scenario is undoubtedly the worst 11 pts and not fit for opening. However, the second one, with a similar pattern though, is of much higher value than the first one and can provide the dealer with a guaranteed opening.

Your question cant be answered, since the question is highly system depend.

 

If you happen to play a limited system, say precision, than light openers work reasonably well.

If you happen to play a Acol like system, than light openers will work reasonably well.

If you happen to play a mini NT opener, than opening 10-13 bal. hands will also work.

 

But they come with a price:

 

Playing Precision, you have to deal with artificial 1 level opening bids, which

sometimes are overcrowded, making them vulnerable against intervention.

Playing Acol, you have to add lots of artifical conventions to have a chance

explore slams in a reasonable way.

If you play against peoble, who know hwow to defend against a mini NT, you

will quite often have to play doubled contracts -?.

=> Most peoble would reject opening a Mini in certain positions, at certain

vulnerabilities.

 

If you happen to play a 2/1 like system, than light openers wont work well.

 

The reason is simple - In a natural system, SAYC style, the upper bound of your

opening bids is 22/23 (depending how conservative / agressive).

If you add lots of 11 counts and maybe even 10 counts the range of your one

level opening bids is very wide, approx. 11/12 points, and this will lead to

problems, which are not easily handled, if you stick with +12 than the spread is

at most 10.

E.g. you will fairly fast reach the 3 level without having established a gf seq.

The difference may not sound huge, but you may search for a discussion, if it is

possible to deal with a 4 point spread with an NT opening vs. the standard 3

spread, and after a NT opening you already have transmitted your hand pattern,

which has not be done with a 1 level suit opening.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Free]

♠AJT9

♥K98

♦QT93

♣JT96

And I thought 3-suited hands stopped at 4244, but now there's a new branch: 4344!

 

Next week, we'll present the first 4-suited hand: 4-4-4-4

[gwnn]

I heard of glorious Soviet engineers who managed to reach sin(x)=1.2 and had a project for 1.4 or 1.5 :( (in the context of projectile distance)

[nige1]

An expert was mad at me because I opened with an 11-point hand and warned me don't do it anymore.  It may be hard to say which leads to a better result in practice, opening with 11 pts or not, but there is bad 11 pts and good 11 pts, as shown in the following:

♠AJ53 ♥K32 ♦Q653 ♣J742

7N is a reasonable gamble. If partner has a little something

eg ♠ K ♥ AQ ♦ KJxxx ♣ KQxxx

You can concede a couple of tricks and claim the remaining 13 :)

[zasanya]

A good criterion for opening 11 hcp hands is open if 6 losers or less.Do not open if 7 losers or more.More adventurous souls can open with 7 losers but opening a 8 loser 11 hcp hand cannot be recommended.

Then your conclusion would be that #2 is a much better 9-loser hand. I assume that means you would not open it even if the club jack were the queen, making it a good 8-loser hand.

 

LTC has always given me problems, but I think AJT9 K9X QT9X QT9X would lure me into opening. (Yes, I am clowning about the two minor suit x's- in case that needed to be said).

 

My resident authority on LTC tells me that it is much better used AFTER a fit has been found, than when deciding whether to open a particular balanced hand.

I was not commenting on the hands given by the opening poster.My comment was about opening hands with 11 hcp and the comment was based on the book The Modern Losing Trick Count (page 128 line 21) by Ron Klinger who I consider THE authority on all aspects of bidding. The hand given by you AJ109 K9x Q109x Q109x has 12 hcp (not 11) fortified by excellent intermediates and is definitely an opening hand.

[vuroth]

An expert was mad at me because I opened with an 11-point hand and warned me don't do it anymore.  It may be hard to say which leads to a better result in practice, opening with 11 pts or not, but there is bad 11 pts and good 11 pts, as shown in the following:

♠AJ53 ♥K32 ♦Q653 ♣J742

7N is a reasoable gamble. If partner has a little something

eg ♠ K ♥ AQ ♦ KJxxx ♣ KQxxx

You can concede a couple of tricks and claim the remaining 13 :)

:P

[Apollo81]

Since you've got 15 cards, that means each opponent holds only 12. If you can win trick 12, no one will be able to follow to the last three tricks. Thus these hands are worth at least a 2NT opener.

[hsheng]

Hi, folks, thank you all for valuable remarks :lol: