Can you bid this grand?

[mohitz]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxhxxxxxdaxxckxxx&s=sakq9haktxxdxcaxx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

No, i did NOT construct this hand! Hand from the club today.

 

Looking for a reasonable sequence to 7H playing standard(ish) methods.

[chasetb]

Using Controls after 2♣ bid, it's easy.

2♣ - 2♠*

3♥ - 4♥

4NT** - 5♣

5♦ - 6♣***

7♥

 

* 3 Controls, has to be A♣ and either K♣ or K♦

** RKC 1430, doing it to look for Q♥

*** Technically we don't have Q♥, but with 5 trump opposite 5+ from partner, you have an 89% chance to not lose a trump trick with 10, and 100% with 11+. Therefore, I show my K♣, and partner duly bids the grand.

 

EDIT- If you say No, then tell us YOUR way gwnn. I agree with mike777's 2nd way, that would be the way I would like to play it. However, in WV the above bidding sequence would in fact be standard, with it being the same after 4♠ if playing Kickback, just a step down.

[gwnn]

No.

[mike777]

I can find out pard has 5hearts, AD and KC and denies KD or QC so:

 

 

1h=4d(Bergen style....5h with 1-1.5 outside quick tricks)

4s(rkc)=5c(1-4)

5s(specific K ask, grand try)=6c(kc)

 

 

Since I wont splinter....pard could be xx....xxxxx....Ax...Kxxx

----------------

 

 

option 2 would be to open 2c....but many will never do that holding this hand.

 

 

 

2c=2d(random pos.)

2h=3s(splinter)

4s( rkc)=etc...to 7h now

 

hope pard is not....x....Qxxx....Axx...Kxxxx

[Echognome]

Using Controls after 2♣ bid, it's easy.

2♣ - 2♠*

3♥ - 4♥

4NT** - 5♣

5♦ - 6♣***

7♥

 

* 3 Controls, has to be A♣ and either K♣ or K♦

** RKC 1430, doing it to look for Q♥

*** Technically we don't have Q♥, but with 5 trump opposite 5+ from partner, you have an 89% chance to not lose a trump trick with 10, and 100% with 11+. Therefore, I show my K♣, and partner duly bids the grand.

And partner won't play you to have:

 

♠xx

♥Qxxx

♦Axx

♣Kxxx

[chasetb]

And partner won't play you to have:

 

♠xx

♥Qxxx

♦Axx

♣Kxxx

Considering I might be the only person within a 30 mile radius that can play a Precision Club and think about distributions, then that point is moot. My partner would be so infatuated with every keycard (s)he would bid 7♥. And sadly, I am serious. Like I posted in my edit right before you posted, that would be with all the people I play with at the club. Mike777's second option would be my ideal way, and the way it should be bid IMO. If partner has a 2nd negative, then (s)he would bid 2NT after 2♥, 2♠ shows 5(4)+ ♠ and no ♥ support.

[Echognome]

I could get there playing relay, but I will refrain from posting the details. I would likely open 1♥ rather than 2♣, figuring I can reverse to force from there if I get past this round. Over that I like a 3♠ splinter from North given the extra trump. We have a shot from there. Tough knowing both hands.

[Cascade]

I can bid it playing standardish relay.

 

However if I manage to bid this one then I will also bid this one

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxhxxxxxdaxckxxxx&s=sakq9haktxxdxcaxx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

and likely this one

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxhxxxxxdaxckxxxx&s=sakq9haktxxdxcaxx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

which will both fail.

 

Our auction will be:

 

1♥

 

2NT spade splinter

 

3♦ diamond shortage

 

4♣ Cue

 

4♠ RKCB

 

5♣ One or Four

 

5♦ Heart queen?

 

6♥ Yes (or extra length)*

 

?

 

 

* We would have had the option to show something extra - specifically a king or just general extras since there is one free step

[awm]

I would not open a strong 2♣ on the south hand; the values are marginal and this is a hard pattern to describe if you don't have an immediate heart raise. Instead how about:

 

1♥ - 3♠(1)

3NT(2) - 4♣(3)

4♠(4) - 4N(5)

5♠(6) - 6♣(7)

7♥

 

(1) Better than normal preemptive 4♥ raise

(2) Ask for shortness; slam interest

(3) Spade shortness

(4) 1430 keycard

(5) One keycard

(6) King ask; we don't care about heart queen with ten trumps

(7) Club king

 

At this point south knows partner's exact hand except for minor suit shape and queens/jacks. While it is possible that north will hold exactly 1-5-2-5 distribution, this is very much against the odds (especially given south's minor suit lengths). Even if north has this lousy shape, there is some chance partner holds the spade jack (cold grand) or the club queen (cold grand) or the club jack (grand on a finesse) or that the jack-ten of spades are falling or that partner has a high enough diamond to allow a minor suit squeeze.

[jjbrr]

1♥ and splinter with N seem normal to me. If partner shows 1KC, then the ♥Q and ♣K, I would probably have to take other things into consideration before I decide what to bid.

[gnasher]

At this point south knows partner's exact hand except for minor suit shape and queens/jacks. While it is possible that north will hold exactly 1-5-2-5 distribution, this is very much against the odds (especially given south's minor suit lengths). Even if north has this lousy shape, there is some chance partner holds the spade jack (cold grand) or the club queen (cold grand) or the club jack (grand on a finesse) or that the jack-ten of spades are falling or that partner has a high enough diamond to allow a minor suit squeeze.

Even opposite A2 of diamonds you have a chance of a black-suit squeeze: just ruff the diamond in hand and run trumps.

[ONEferBRID]

I , like the others, can find the missing key card and the "hQ" ( not knowing it is extra length ) and the cK but not the dK; and I will go down in 7 if the hands are like Cascade's ( a grand-killer 5 card Cl suit: K x x x x ).

[zasanya]

1♥-4♥-4♠-5♦-5♠-6♣-7♥

This is how a competant pair playing 2/1 bid, at our club when I presented this problem but they may have 'smelt' the grand.

[jjbrr]

1♥-4♥-4♠-5♦-5♠-6♣-7♥

This is how a competant pair playing 2/1 bid, at our club when I presented this problem but they may have 'smelt' the grand.

4♥ is hopeless

[kenrexford]

2♦(strong, forcing, artificial, 4+ spades)-P-2♥(not four spades)-P-

3♥(4♠, 5+♥)-p-4♠(splinter)-P-

4NT-P-5♣(1430 -- one)-P-

5♦(Queen?)-P-6♣(yes because of the fifth trump, this King)-P-

 

At this point, Opener expects Responder to have:

 

1. stiff spade (can ruff the fourth spade out)

2. Qxxx or xxxxx+ in hearts

3. Ace of Diamonds (no diamoond losers)

4. Club King

 

Thus, from Opener's perspective, the death hand is whenever Responder has five, or maybe six, clubs with no club Queen, or at least no Jack.

 

Opener could bid 6♦ as Grand slam Last Train, but this sure doesn't say "bid the grand with four or fewer clubs."

 

On the flip side, when Responder has the fifth heart, he might accept the grand slam last train, and the spade 9 might well be big enough to give one more option when Responder has the death holding -- some sort of squeeze.

 

So, the answer is no. I cannot get there. What I can do is get to a point where Opener and Responder might bid intelligently together and land in the grand slam if they each sense a need for a swing. This would be a very reasonable swing-seeking decision, as opposed to a blind, gambling one.

[zasanya]

1♥-4♥-4♠-5♦-5♠-6♣-7♥

This is how a competant pair playing 2/1 bid, at our club when I presented this problem but they may have 'smelt' the grand.

4♥ is hopeless

Why?

[y66]

Agree with awm's sequence and reasons for bidding 7.

 

For me, 1H 4H shows a weakish distributional hand with 5 hearts, not a control rich distributional hand with 5 hearts.

[gnasher]

1♥-4♥-4♠-5♦-5♠-6♣-7♥

This is how a competant pair playing 2/1 bid, at our club when I presented this problem but they may have 'smelt' the grand.

4♥ is hopeless

Why?

The rest of the auction isn't much to write home about, either (unless there is some secret meaning that you haven't shared with us). If the challenge were how to find out that North had ♦A and ♣K, would it belong in this forum?

[Free]

I can't...

 

One way that would work with DD vision (reasonable standard start):

1♥ - 3♣ (5+♥ ; 6-9, 4+♥)

4♦ - 4♠ (GF with singleton ♦ ; Kickback RKC)

4NT - 5♦? (1/4 ; K ask)

5♠ - 5NT (♠K ; asking for a 3rd round control ♠)

7♥ - pass

But why would you ask for Kings anyway? Partner can't have ♣K, and probably won't have ♦K. And ♠K doesn't help much. Even with the above auction you'd still be in grand if opener has AK-AKxxxx-x-Axxx.

 

More reasonable would be the following auction:

1♥ - 3♣ (5+♥ ; 6-9, 4+♥)

4♦ - 4♠ (SI with singleton ♦ ; Kickback RKC)

4NT - 6♣ (1/4 ; asking for 3rd round control ♣)

6♥ - pass

Now you'll reach grand if partner has Axxx-AKxxx-x-AQx or Axxx-AKxxxx-x-Ax (or better), which is way more probably than asking for ♠AKQ.

[655321]

Erm, 6-9 with 4+ hearts?

[hockboy41]

Dealer: South

 

 

♠ x

♥ xxxxx

♦ Axx

♣ Kxxx

 

♠ AKQ9

♥ AKTxx

♦ x

♣ Axx

 

 

YES! PRECISION WITH AUTO TRANSFERS! WOOT WOOT!

 

1♣(16+ points, nothing about distribution)-p-

2♦(transfer to hearts, 7+ points, 5+ hearts, game forcing)-p-

2♥(Completed transfer, BETA asking bid for CONTROLS!-p-

3♣(Showing 3 controls where A=2 and K=1)-p-

3♦(EPSILON asking bid for side-suit control)-p-

4♣(Shows a singleton or an Ace (obviously an ace here))-p-

5♣(SMALL EPSILON asking bid for side-suit control)-p-

5♥(Shows second round control, either a King or a singleton, here a king obviously)-p-

5♠(SMALL EPSILON asking bid for side-suit control)-p-

6♣(Shows second round control, either a King or a singleton, here it MUST be a singleton as South HAS the King)-p-

 

Either 6♥ or 7♥, See under for the analysis!

 

NOW What does South know about North's hand:

♠ x

♥ xxxxx

♦ A

♣ Kx

South doesn't know where 4 cards are, they are NOT honors (definitely not Ace or King, Jack perhaps), and NOT spades (singleton was established).

 

Refresher: What does South HAVE:

♠ AKQ9

♥ AKTxx

♦ x

♣ Axx

 

Putting these together, you have club and perhaps diamond problems, but after trumps are taken, they are no big deal, ALSO you have KQ of spades to throw something on, so you can avoid doing too many cross-ruffs. So the question now is, will the Queen fall? If not, can I finesse the queen? The answer is there is above a 60% chance the Q will fall, and if the Queen doesn't fall, there is a 50% chance the finesse is on the correct side, and THAT WILL fall. So: 80% chance of 7H making.

 

BUT EVEN BETTER! Is South not only plays the hand, but HAS THE CHOICE between 6 or 7! (All because of the AUTO TRANSFERS!!!!!!!!

 

Overall, I would play 6H here, in Matchpoints, you'd be better off getting a high percentage (6H+1) than risking getting a 0% (7H-1). But in IMPS, I would go to 7H. ;)

[Echognome]

If you are going to go the strong club route, then relays makes it straightforward enough:

 

1♣ (1) - 1♦ (2)

1♥ (3) - 1N (4)

2♣ ® - 2♥ (5)

2♠ ® - 3♦ (6)

3♥ ® - 3♠ (7)

4♣ (8) - 4♠ (9)

4N ® - 5♣ (10)

5♦ ® - 5N (11)

7♥

 

® Relay

(1) 16+ any shape

(2) NOT 9+ with 2+ controls

(3) 19+ any shape

(4) Semi-pos, 4+hearts

(5) 4+ clubs

(6) Short spades

(7) 1=5=3=4 shape

(8) Control Ask

(9) 3 Controls (A=2, K=1)

(10) No heart A or K

(11) Clubs A or K, Diamond A or K, no Heart Queen

 

Hand is known to be:

♠x

♥xxxxx

♦Axx

♣Kxxx

 

I'm sure that a number of posters could produce their own relay auctions to get you to the same place.

[Free]

Erm, 6-9 with 4+ hearts?

Yes, for various reasons:

- this is what I have

- partner won't pass ever so we can still raise to 4♥ if he signs off in 3♥

- if partner asks with 3♦ we can show our shortness (specifically singleton even)

- this hand is way too strong for an immediate 4♥ raise

- this hand is not good enough to describe it as 9-11HCP with 4+♥ and shortness imo.

- I don't have a way to distinguish 4 or 5 card support immediately

[the hog]

This is child's play using a relay system. Playing 2/1 I would get to 6 only.

 

Playing PC

1C 1H

2D 2S 2D = Odwrotka, 2S = 5 card suit, 7-10

2N 3C 2NT* = relay, 3C = 4C

3D 3NT 3D*, 3NT = s/t S

4C 4H 4C = KC,

5C 5S 5C = C ask, 5S = K

7H

[gnasher]

This is child's play using a relay system. Playing 2/1 I would get to 6 only.

 

Playing PC

1C 1H

2D 2S 2D = Odwrotka, 2S = 5 card suit, 7-10

2N 3C 2NT* = relay, 3C = 4C

3D 3NT 3D*, 3NT = s/t S

4C 4H 4C = KC,

5C 5S 5C = C ask, 5S = K

7H

Where did we find out that responder doesn't have xx xxxx Ax Kxxx or even xxx xxxxx A Kxxx ?