Stopped in 6

[aguahombre]

I can't get my head around the concept of "too strong to splinter". :blink:

It involves a theory that bids which take up several levels should have well-defined limits. Others like to show their shape, then bid again to show more. You just have to decide which concept is "partnership" oriented and choose the style you like.

[655321]

Agree East 100%, I would have started with RKCB, but if you don't want to do that with 2 losers in hearts and clubs, I still don't understand bypassing 5♦.

 

I dislike the suggestion that aquaman has made (twice four times) that West should suppress his spade support and conduct a masterminding auction instead.

Edited May 21, 2010 by 655321

[aguahombre]

Now it is starting to make sense to me. When I am attempting to show about a whole Ace better than a splinter would show ---so partner can take over ---and along the way discover information which makes it easy for me to take over, that is called "masterminding".

 

But if I just splinter, then am uncomfortable when partner declines to move forward and have to make another bid, that is not masterminding.

[cherdanno]

Now it is starting to make sense to me. When I am attempting to show about a whole Ace better than a splinter would show ---so partner can take over ---and along the way discover information which makes it easy for me to take over, that is called "masterminding".

 

But if I just splinter, then am uncomfortable when partner declines to move forward and have to make another bid, that is not masterminding.

Huh?

4♥ says "if you have a good splinter, we may have slam". West has a very good splinter (although he certainly does not have an ace extra), so he moves on over 4♥ with keycard.

 

Anyway, of course you are free to make any agreements you want, but in standard you deny 4-card spade support when you don't raise immediately.

[aguahombre]

I surrender. Didn't know Partner would last train with, say JXXXXX QXX XX QX, making blackwood obvious and eliminating the need to "mastermind".

 

Also was under the impression that a reverse, followed by JUMP support showed 4 pieces and about 22+ dummy points -- and a direct splinter only showed around 19-21 dummy points, while a reverse, then just bidding the suit showed only 3 card support.

 

Will have to be content with our antiquated style, which seems to suit us just fine. In fact 3D is the splinter, and 4D just shows a non-serious 4-6 in the rounded suits; so others who have both as splinters can actually use 4D for the bigger splinter and still blame East when the cold grand is missed --since West cannot possibly count 13 tricks without the spade length info.

[655321]

Aquaman, what are you doing? You stated your opinion once (fine), then followed up with a stream of sarcastic posts when people dared to offer contrary opinions. You do realise your original post is still there for people to read, and agree with you if they wish?

 

Opposite Jxxxxx Qxx xx Qx I notice that you will force to slam, well done, no doubt you will also stay out of slam opposite Jxxxxx Qx Qx xxx.

 

Unless you have specifically agreed to play the methods you describe then yes, it is the very definition of masterminding to make a non-descriptive bid in order to hear partner's response and make a decision based on that response. But sure, if these are your partnership's agreed methods then the masterminding tag that seems to offend you doesn't apply. Recently in a different thread you made a post boasting that you often redoubled with 4 cards when opponents doubled a transfer/Stayman, yet your wife never did this. I venture to guess that you would indeed (at least whenever East has 6 spades!) bid the way you suggest on this hand, but that your wife would be content to splinter and let you make the decision. Maybe I have misinterpreted your posts, but the impression I am left with is that you are the decision-maker in your partnership.

 

 

But if I just splinter, then am uncomfortable when partner declines to move forward and have to make another bid

I don't think anyone is bidding again as West if East just bids 4♠.

 

 

Will have to be content with our antiquated style, which seems to suit us just fine.

 

Arrrgh! Why is it so very common that when somebody's pet method is criticised, this is always their comeback? Not to pick on aquaman, it is not just him, and I have no idea if aquaman is regularly representing the US in international competition, or if he regards getting better than 45% in the local duplicate as a triumph, but it doesn't actually matter, even for posters who would be pleased with 45%, it is always 'these methods work very well for me!'

 

Oh well.

[hanp]

What's your point Numbers? Repeating the same argument over and over again has always worked well for me.

[bluecalm]

Simple case of FPS imo (fancy play syndrome for people not familiar with that).

E should have bid RKC and, then ask for kings and bid 7♠.

4♥ doesn't make any sense. Splinter bidder described his hand already and E has perfect hand.

 

East is the guy who can count 13 tricks here, will be hard without blackwood though. Don't think he is worth 4NT with 2 tiny hearts.

 

Last thing we should worry about is lack of stopper in unbid suit after strong hand splinters, xx is actually pretty good holding on this auction.

 

Opener would consider himself too strong for a splinter and start with a reverse

 

Isn't it standard to bid splinters with hands which make playable slams opposite perfect minimum ? Seems like this hand fits perfectly.

 

RKC with xx in hearts? If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

 

No. Last train is convention which purpose is to say : "Partner, I don't know if we have enough values for slam, I make this one last try instead of signing off".

Here E has enough information already. How do you think we can check for ♥ stopper after 4♥ bid anyway ? What do you plan to do if W signs off in 4♠ ? If you bid on partner will be convinced you have ♥ stopper (and rightly so).

 

Right, but Kx or Kxx or KJx all are subject to two losers. Do you bid 50-50 slams?

 

Bad logic here. If I am facing a range of hands and most of them make 100% slam (or grand). Some of them 90% slam and tiny minority of them 50% slam (and actually opposite KJx of hearts it's much more than 50%, DUCY ?) I am of course bidding it.

 

E is 100% to blame. I would also say it's very simple mistake. I can't imagine any good player defending E's bidding.

[hanp]

Isn't it standard to bid splinters with hands which make playable slams opposite perfect minimum ?

No I don't think so.

[bluecalm]

Isn't it standard to bid splinters with hands which make playable slams opposite perfect minimum ?

 

No I don't think so.

 

It was rhetoric question.

If we bid splinter we are announcing :

-good values for game

-shortness

-4+ trumps

 

Those enough makes playable slams opposite perfect minimums.

It's quite important not to make splinters on too strong hands (like 18count opposite 1♠ opener). Here though it's not a problem as 1/1 response is 6+ or even weaker) and we are limited already opening 1♣.

[pooltuna]

What's your point Numbers? Repeating the same argument over and over again has always worked well for me.

so if they don't get it you ♣ them! and then you ♣♣ them some more ! :)

[Phil]

My eyes must be going bad. Have at least two posters suggested that WEST initiate key card over 4D?

 

(I was West but I'm not tyring to defend my position, I posted this to generate an interesting discussion).

[billw55]

RKC with xx in hearts? If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

 

No. Last train is convention which purpose is to say : "Partner, I don't know if we have enough values for slam, I make this one last try instead of signing off".

Which is what I thought east should be saying here. He knows west is big, but not that big. Maybe I am too wimpy.

 

Here E has enough information already. How do you think we can check for ♥ stopper after 4♥ bid anyway ?

5♣ - 5♦ - 5♥. Stopper. Oops east didn't actually bid 5♦.

 

What do you plan to do if W signs off in 4♠ ?

Pass. See above about wimpy.

 

Bad logic here ...

yeah on second though I agree. There are extra chances there. But again, opener has more than he has so far shown. In particular he could easily still splinter without the ♣K, which will not be discovered by RKC.

 

E is 100% to blame. I would also say it's very simple mistake.

Agree again. OK, you think east bidding RKC is 100%. But he still could give himself a chance with the painfully obvious 5♦.

[cherdanno]

My eyes must be going bad. Have at least two posters suggested that WEST initiate key card over 4D?

No West bid 4D himself, so he can't bid keycard over that.

But yes I think East should bid keycard over 4D. If he bids 4H, then I think West should bid keycard over that, as West knows he is bidding a small slam and finding a grand is much easier if you check for keycards first. (In fact it would be obvious to bid the grand after 4D-4H-4N-5C-5D-5N-6C.)