Stopped in 6

[Phil]

A BBF regular and I held these hands:

 

[hv=d=w&w=sakxxhajxxdxcakjx&e=sqjtxxxhxxdaxxcqx]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

and perpetrated this auction:

 

1♣ - 1♠

4♦ - 4♥

5♣ - 5♠

6♠ - Pass

 

ATB if any.

[ArtK78]

I assume that 4♥ was last train.

 

East should LOVE his hand when opener bids 4♦. Two extra spades, no wasted values. For this reason, I find East's 5♠ bid over 5♣ to be quite puzzling.

 

Why did East not bid 5♦ over 5♣? I don't know if that will be sufficient to get the partnership to a grand, but it will keep the wheels moving ahead rather than stopping them. Presumably, West assumed the ♦A was missing and so he signed off at 6♠.

 

Therefore, the blame, if there is any, is on East, for denying possession of the ♦A. West must terminate all grand slam exploration once East refuses to acknowledge possession of the ♦A.

[rogerclee]

Uhh..

 

1C-1S

4D-4N

5C-5N

6C-7S

 

Therefore, the blame, if there is any,

hahaha

[Fluffy]

East is the guy who can count 13 tricks here, will be hard without blackwood though. Don't think he is worth 4NT with 2 tiny hearts.

[aguahombre]

No blame to the players. A different style, such as old first-addition 2/1 would have been more successful.

 

Opener would consider himself too strong for a splinter and start with a reverse, intending to jump to 4S later. Responder would mess this plan up by showing extra spade length and 9+ Pts. Then opener uses RKC, followed by eventual 6C (after responder showed trump queen and no outside king) to bring in the club queen as a factor.

[billw55]

Uhh..

 

1C-1S

4D-4N

5C-5N

6C-7S

 

RKC with xx in hearts? If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

 

Agree that east should bid 5♦ over 5♣. What possible reason is there not to?

[pooltuna]

A BBF regular and I held these hands:

 

Dealer: West Vul: ???? Scoring: IMP

♠ AKxx ♥ AJxx ♦ x ♣ AKJx ♠ QJTxxx ♥ xx ♦ Axx ♣ Qx

 

and perpetrated this auction:

 

1♣ - 1♠

4♦ - 4♥

5♣ - 5♠

6♠ - Pass

 

ATB if any.

The red letter (I? or M?) goes to EAST (maybe should be yellow letter (for cowardice)?) he holds 2 more ♠ than he could the ♦A and the working (the partner did open this suit) ♣ Q. If nothing else is available make life hard on partner and over 4♦ call 5♦. I mean you are looking at the A♦ + 2 ruffs + some number between 4 and 6 ♠ tricks so partner has to come up with 4 rounded suit tricks

[hanp]

Serious underbidding by East!

 

West had such a strong hand, I think 4NT might have been better but much easier if east bids it first.

[kfay]

East SUCKS!

[MFA]

What was 4♦? (3♦ was also available)

 

East underbid. If he decides not to keycard 4NT he should certainly cooperate over 5♣ since he has a very strong hand in context.

 

I don't like west's 5♣. Apparently he was already in small slam at least, and trying to bid a grand without ever keycarding is filthy stuff. I suppose he could be excused if a later 5NT would be RKC.

[Codo]

RKC with xx in hearts? If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

So you think that partner splinters in diamonds with Akxx, xx,x,AKQxxx?

No way. He can bid4 club with that hand. So he must have more, at least Kx in hearts.

[RichMor]

Is East really to blame ?

 

Would West also rebid 4♦ with

♠ AKxx

♥ AKxx

♦ x

♣ AJxx

 

or

♠ Axxx

♥ AKxx

♦ x

♣ AKJx

 

And would East want to bid a grand facing these hands ?

[hanp]

Is East really to blame ?

 

Yes definitely.

 

Would West also rebid 4♦ with

♠ AKxx

♥ AKxx

♦ x

♣ AJxx

 

Yes

 

or

♠ Axxx

♥ AKxx

♦ x

♣ AKJx

Yes

 

And would East want to bid a grand facing these hands ?

 

What's your point?

 

Not cooperating with slam is different from bidding a grand. On the second hand you gave you are missing a keycard, there are methods to find out.

 

On the OP's hand partner has the club king, your first example does not. Again, you can find out about this by starting with blackwood.

[billw55]

RKC with xx in hearts?  If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there.  Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

So you think that partner splinters in diamonds with Akxx, xx,x,AKQxxx?

No way. He can bid4 club with that hand. So he must have more, at least Kx in hearts.

Right, but Kx or Kxx or KJx all are subject to two losers. Do you bid 50-50 slams?

[karlson]

I think I wouldn't quite drive the east cards to slam, there are still some normal splinters which will give basically no play (e.g. AKxx KQx x Axxxx). I would bid 5♦ over 4♦ and hope that described my hand pretty well. Over that, west might well drive to grand -- with no heart control (surely all hands with heart control also bid 4♥ despite it being last train), but not much wasted in diamonds, east must have either very long spades or a double fit in clubs.

 

I think it's normal to play that 3♦ is either invitational or very strong, that would have helped on this hand perhaps.

[rogerclee]

I think I wouldn't quite drive the east cards to slam, there are still some normal splinters which will give basically no play (e.g. AKxx KQx x Axxxx).

On a non-club lead you are on a finesse. And it's not even a 4D bid (to me).

[gnasher]

I don't like west's 5♣. Apparently he was already in small slam at least, and trying to bid a grand without ever keycarding is filthy stuff.

That might be a reasonable general rule, but I don't think it applies on this hand. West had four of the five keycards, and he could be certain that East's next bid would either show or deny ♦A.

 

It seems straightforward to bid the grand after 5♣:

5♣-5♦

5♥-5♠

6♣-7♠

[Jlall]

East's bidding was silly.

 

Gnasher, how can east sign off in 5S on that auction?

[RichMor]

Is East really to blame ?

 

Yes definitely.

 

Would West also rebid 4♦ with

♠ AKxx

♥ AKxx

♦ x

♣ AJxx

 

Yes

 

or

♠ Axxx

♥ AKxx

♦ x

♣ AKJx

Yes

 

And would East want to bid a grand facing these hands ?

 

What's your point?

 

Not cooperating with slam is different from bidding a grand. On the second hand you gave you are missing a keycard, there are methods to find out.

 

On the OP's hand partner has the club king, your first example does not. Again, you can find out about this by starting with blackwood.

See title of post for "the point"

[gnasher]

Gnasher, how can east sign off in 5S on that auction?

Ah yes. For some reason I thouught East had opened the bidding, in which case Last Train followed by a cue-bid had done justice to his hand.

[ONEferBRID]

I see Karlson is the only one advocating the SINGLE-jump Reverse splinter:

 

1C          - 1S

3D! ( jump-Reverse splinter ) - 4D ( must be Ht A; denies Ht or Cl Ctrls; A or K )

4NT ( 03 14, etc )        - 5D

5H ( sQ-ask )       - 6C ( sQ -- or extra length-- AND cQ )

7S

 

Of course let's hope Responder isn't this ( below ):

 

♠ AKxx

♥ AJxx

♦ x

♣ AKJx

 

♠ QJTx

♥ xx

♦ Axx

♣ Qxxx

[MFA]

I don't like west's 5♣. Apparently he was already in small slam at least, and trying to bid a grand without ever keycarding is filthy stuff.

That might be a reasonable general rule, but I don't think it applies on this hand. West had four of the five keycards, and he could be certain that East's next bid would either show or deny ♦A.

I agree with you about the ♦A, but there is still the ♠Q to find out about.

[jdonn]

It's funny how people always talk about many players who use keycard too much, which is true, but they don't realize there is also a large class of players that doesn't bid keycard enough either. Even if it's not 100% perfect bidding keycard makes things so much simpler! Having a cuebidding auction on a hand like this is not easy to do accurately and sometimes makes finding out the trump situation difficult as well.

[aguahombre]

This thread lost its allure when East started getting blame.

 

XXXXXX XXX XX QX=small slam.

XXXXXX XXX AX QX=grand. Each depending only on 2-1 spades.

 

Yet, West got hung up on splintering with his mountain when a simple reverse would uncover extra spade length, sending opener to the races. Even if the reverse found responder with fewer spades, a subsequent jump to 4S by West would describe a hand too-strong for the splinter, and put East in charge.

 

But, as it is, West can just launch RKC after discovering the spade length --getting around to the club queen in the process if responder has the diamond bullet.

 

edit: will pay off if responder has a stiff diamond and four baby hearts.

[Winstonm]

I assume that 4♥ was last train.

 

East should LOVE his hand when opener bids 4♦. Two extra spades, no wasted values. For this reason, I find East's 5♠ bid over 5♣ to be quite puzzling.

 

Why did East not bid 5♦ over 5♣? I don't know if that will be sufficient to get the partnership to a grand, but it will keep the wheels moving ahead rather than stopping them. Presumably, West assumed the ♦A was missing and so he signed off at 6♠.

 

Therefore, the blame, if there is any, is on East, for denying possession of the ♦A. West must terminate all grand slam exploration once East refuses to acknowledge possession of the ♦A.

This is certainly how I understand this auction - I'm sure wrong, as usual.

 

After 5D, opener will bid 6C, which responder can then "know" that opener would not suggest grand slam without AK of spade, so he can count 6 spade, 3 clubs, 1 heart, one diamond, and two diamond ruffs - 13 tricks.

 

I can't get my head around the concept of "too strong to splinter". :blink: