An Auction

[kfay]

1♦-(2♥)-2♠-(4♥)

Dbl-(P)-4♠-(P)

4NT

[karlson]

I'm sure it won't be popular, but I would answer keycard here. Everything else seems too weird.

[mgoetze]

Keycard for me too. If partner has the minors he could have bid 5♣ or 5NT...

[aguahombre]

Do we get to know the level of the person who bid 4NT?

 

He already warned us about wanting to defend, rather than play in spades. So, we need to know if he is adv+ and is torturing us to figure out the pattern --or if he is just throwing a tantrum with a spade void.

[pooltuna]

1♦-(2♥)-2♠-(4♥)

Dbl-(P)-4♠-(P)

4NT

At the Bedlam Bridge Center, 4NT is to play since partner can't be trusted to know when to play 4♠ besides the 4NT bidder has a ♠ void :D

[mikeh]

natural doesn't look right....we can't be overruling partner on this hand...we have already shown a strong hand with short spades and probably some stuff in hearts (strong because we were not in a fp situation imo)

 

So takeout or keycard? neither seems clear.

 

Takeout caters to his having say 6=5 or 7=5 blacks and may also win on strongish 6=4/7=4 hands when we are say 0=3=6=4. We can assume that unless he has 8+ spades, he will have either diamond tolerance, making our 6=3 playable, or 4+ clubs, making our 4=4 playable.

 

Keycard caters to our having a hand such as J Axx AKxxx AKxx.

 

My intuition is down for the day so I have no sense which is the most likely scenario. Tipping the scale in favour of takeout is the notion that we can't show that hand any other way (pulling to 5♣ would show 5) while, with the keycard hand, we can at least make some other unambiguous move in spades..... 5♥ is one seemingly obvious slam try and 5♠ is another...we can already infer short hearts from the auction and our spade shortness makes using 5♥ as any form of ask about a heart control seem silly.

 

So I vote takeout....but not with anyone less than expert, since I would expect keycard to be the default meaning for most (and maybe that's why it should be for all, anyway...)

[gwnn]

Keycard please, takeout seems interesting but feels out of place where partner is the one with the spades (as opposed to opps bidding a lot of spades and us bidding 4NT out of necessity). With minor oriented hands we can

pass

bid 5c

bid 5d

bid something else last round

 

that seems enough to me. Of course sometimes it will not be enough but not that often.

[Phil]

I think its logically natural but I wouldn't ever spring this on a partner unless we discussed it in advance or at least had some firm rules.

 

Key card makes no sense to me. Neither does takeout. Why can't I prefer NT to spades - this might even be a misfit.

[Jlall]

I think its logically natural

What logic would that be

[bluecalm]

Imo RKCB in ♠. If partner is 6-5 or 7-4 in minors he could have bid 4NT on previous round.

[jdonn]

Keycard. Who cares what I might prefer, partner seems to prefer something else more.

[Phil]

I think its logically natural

What logic would that be

So we express an opinion about 4♥ by doubling. Partner pulls to 4♠, and suddenly we want to make a slam try with 4N (RKC)?

 

I can't begin to understand why it would be takeout, so I'm not going to try.

 

Whats your choice?

[karlson]

Seems that a lot of people think double was penalty. I was assuming it wasn't -- my preferred treatment would be takeout/flexible, so 4s was not at all unexpected and doesn't have to be on 7 spades.

[kfay]

Seems that a lot of people think double was penalty. I was assuming it wasn't -- my preferred treatment would be takeout/flexible, so 4s was not at all unexpected and doesn't have to be on 7 spades.

Yes, I assumed the same.

[gwnn]

whoever assumed double was penalties?

[bluecalm]

So we express an opinion about 4♥ by doubling. Partner pulls to 4♠, and suddenly we want to make a slam try with 4N (RKC)?

 

I can't begin to understand why it would be takeout, so I'm not going to try.

 

??

C'mon it's not 1960. How is double for penalties ?

If it was, what would you bid with:

 

Ax xx AKxxx KQxx or

Ax x KQxxx AQxxx or even:

Kx x AQJxxx AJxx

 

Even if you are in penalty doubles in a lot of auctions if:

a)we didn't find fit

b)given hand has very wide range (11-22 here)

c)you sit in front of length of their suit

 

The only reasonable treatment is to play it as t/o.

 

EDIT : to add 13th card to 3rd example :)

[mikeh]

there is no way that the double contains real spade support. We are not in a fp situation, so double shows ownership fo the hand (thus extra values) and no liking for spades. It doesn't show a heart stack but it suggests playing for penalties unless partner has some feature not indicated by a minimum 2♠ bid...extra spades (playable opposite a stiff) or big minor shape.

 

Call it what you want (other than takeout, which in my view it isn't). It suggests they can't make 4♥ and we can't make 4♠ (opposite a minimum range 2♠) nor am I confident of a 5 level minor suit adventure.

 

I would expect the double to be left in much of the time...not as much as if this were 1960....but a takeout double is taken out unless partner has, based on his own defence, a desire to penalize them...and this ain't that double

[bluecalm]

Ok, fine. So what do you bid with above mentioned hands ?

[Phil]

there is no way that the double contains real spade support. We are not in a fp situation, so double shows ownership fo the hand (thus extra values) and no liking for spades. It doesn't show a heart stack but it suggests playing for penalties unless partner has some feature not indicated by a minimum 2♠ bid...extra spades (playable opposite a stiff) or big minor shape.

 

Call it what you want (other than takeout, which in my view it isn't). It suggests they can't make 4♥ and we can't make 4♠ (opposite a minimum range 2♠) nor am I confident of a 5 level minor suit adventure.

 

I would expect the double to be left in much of the time...not as much as if this were 1960....but a takeout double is taken out unless partner has, based on his own defence, a desire to penalize them...and this ain't that double

I've thought about this one overnight and I'm coming around to this POV:

 

Here's a few hands:

 

xx Axx KJxx AQxx

 

Kx Axx KQJxx Axx

 

Kx AJx KQxx AQxx

 

 

I think these are all clear doubles. On 1, I would pass 4♠. On 2 I would bid 4N (so sue me...). On 3? Not so sure - maybe pick a slam; dunno.

 

By the way, on Bluecalm's examples the only one I agree can double is the 1st (3rd has 12 btw).

[gwnn]

on the second you think 4N will be a better contract than 4S? Why?

[aguahombre]

Hard to have a good debate on what the double of 4H meant, and the follow-ups, when we have different agreements on what 2S meant.

 

For some of us, the question of whether we have game values was already resolved by the 2S bid. For others that question has to be considered in the mix.

 

If 2S was not game committed, then double of 4H seriously expressed an opinion to defend, and 4NT being Blackwood seems inconsistent.

 

If 2S was GF, double still suggested lack of spade support and willingness to defend; but 4NT RKC after the pull showing extra spades and extra offense is possible.

[Phil]

on the second you think 4N will be a better contract than 4S? Why?

Sorry, I meant 4N as RKC. B)

 

I'm not really that hard-headed.

[mikeh]

Ok, fine. So what do you bid with above mentioned hands ?

on No. 1...frankly I am unsure....I might have chosen to open 1N, not in anticipation of this auction, but because this hand type is often tough to bid after 1♦ - 1M. We can get by this round via 2♣, but the hand is 'in-between' values for a clear decision over a 2♦ preference or a 2M rebid. Having got myself to this point, I suspect I'd double, but I wouldn't be comfortable.

 

On No. 2, I bid 4♠. Seems clear to me, altho I would never claim it will end well....5♣ could easily work out better, but 4♠ will rarely be a disaster.

 

On No. 3 I call the director....actually, I tend to count my cards before the auction gets to the 4 level.

[bluecalm]

If 2S was not game committed, then double of 4H seriously expressed an opinion to defend, and 4NT being Blackwood seems inconsistent.

 

If 2S was GF, double still suggested lack of spade support and willingness to defend; but 4NT RKC after the pull showing extra spades and extra offense is possible.

 

I don't follow this logic at all. If anything I would play it other way around.

We really have to double if we have like 15+hcp and no spade support if 2♠ doesn't commit us to game because there is a big real danger it will be passed out if we won't.

 

On the other hand if pass was somehow forcing it makes a lot of sense to play in 4NT if we double because then we promise ♥ values (could have make FP if we didn't).

 

xx Axx KJxx AQxx

 

Kx Axx KQJxx Axx

 

Kx AJx KQxx AQxx

 

I admit I keep forgetting we play this system in most posts (18-20 balanced in both 1♣ and 1♦ for additional confusion).

 

Those examples are clear doubles too of course. I am expecting (and be happy with it !) partner will pull every time he is dealt 6♠ so I hope nobody is calling those hands "willing to defend" ?

 

on No. 1...frankly I am unsure....I might have chosen to open 1N, not in anticipation of this auction, but because this hand type is often tough to bid after 1♦ - 1M. We can get by this round via 2♣, but the hand is 'in-between' values for a clear decision over a 2♦ preference or a 2M rebid. Having got myself to this point, I suspect I'd double, but I wouldn't be comfortable.

 

On No. 2, I bid 4♠. Seems clear to me, altho I would never claim it will end well....5♣ could easily work out better, but 4♠ will rarely be a disaster.

 

Ok, I get it. I hate this treatment because it's possible we will be in 5-2 game at 4 level instead collecting heavily but I can see it has merits.

I guess you also double on every hand from Phil's post ?

Do you think partner should pull with all (almost all?) hands with 6♠ ?

[mikeh]

Ok, I get it. I hate this treatment because it's possible we will be in 5-2 game at 4 level instead collecting heavily but I can see it has merits.

I guess you also double on every hand from Phil's post ?

Do you think partner should pull with all (almost all?) hands with 6♠ ?

 

No...and you'd know that if you read my earlier posts. I suggested that my view of the double was that partner wouldn't pull it to 4♠ unless he had a suit (and a hand, obviously) that was playable opposite a stiff. Few 6 card suits would offer that assurance, especially since we are quite likely to be tapped fairly soon.

 

As an aside, and an extra factor, my view (which may be idiosyncratic) is that the minimum strength shown by 2♠ is linked to the length and quality of the spade suit. Thus I would bid 2♠ on weaker hands when holding a 6 card suit of good texture than when holding only a 5 card suit. Double suggests defending most of the time opposite a minimum range 2♠ bid, and minimum range 2♠ bids will often hold 6 spades. This is of course one of the reasons why I would (uncomfortably) bid 4♠ with Ax x in the majors and extra values. Either partner has enough spades to make the suit playable opposite Ax or he has sufficient compensating values to allow us to get by even in a 5-2...especially when the '2' contains a ruffing control of a suit in which partner himself rates to be shortish.