Another Patton bidding problem

[hanp]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sa10xxhxd10xxcq10xxx]133|100|Scoring: Patton

1H - p - 1S - p

2C - p - p - (2D)

Dbl - p - ??[/hv]

 

What do you expect of the double and what is your call?

[effervesce]

We responded 1NT not 1♠? Anyway, I'd expect roughly 3514 shape. Game seems quite possible with no wastage in diamonds - 4♣ by me seems right. Or am I completely off track and this is a penalty double?

[gordontd]

I wonder if opener might bid this way with 4513? Having failed to bid my spades at the appropriate time, I might as well bid them now as we can always go back to clubs.

[hanp]

Sorry, responded 1S of course, edited.

[Little Kid]

3♣

[MFA]

3♣ now seems obvious. I would expect something like 2524 with extras.

[helene_t]

Agree with Michael.

 

If we don't usually open 1NT with a 5-card major, he might have a 3523 16-count.

[mcphee]

The responder holds 5 card trump support and might well have raised. Passing with 5 card support is most often wrong.

[kayin801]

X is just extras, he could be 3532 in the worst case (if you'd bid 2♣ on that shape and not open 1NT ala what helene said). It's tempting to pass and try for something like heart, heart ruff, club, heart ruff, and later score the ♠A and something else, but that seems like we're putting all our eggs in one basket and playing for a specific (though relatively likely) layout, not to mention we really want -2. 3♣.

[wank]

we've got a huge amount of playing strength here.

 

Kx

axxxx

Ax

akxx

 

gives slam. ok, it's 18 with prime controls but it's a crappy shape. 5C is pretty likely imo.

 

time to jump to 4C and punish the opps for protecting.

[y66]

Opener doesn't have a hand that can open 1N, raise spades, rebid hearts or bid 3C so perhaps he is 1534 2524 2533 and near the top of his range for 2C.

 

3C for me.

 

If X is cooperative and an offer to play 2DX if we have 3+ diamonds I'll pass. Seems like this could work as well as 3C and may be more fun, if not at the table then in the PM.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sa10xxhxd10xxcq10xxx]133|100|Scoring: Patton

1H - p - 1S - p

2C - p - p - (2D)

Dbl - p - ??[/hv]

 

What do you expect of the double and what is your call?

I call 3♣ Double? what double? :( :)

[Fluffy]

I also agree with michael, what he doesn't have IMO is 3 spades since he would bid 2♠ iwth the 3514 with extras.

[hanp]

I bid also 3C at the table, but I thought for quite some time about bidding 4C. I don't want to tell yet what partner had because it might influence the discussion. You may assume though that partner does not have a 5332 shape (he would either open 1NT or rebid 2NT) and does not have 3 spades (he would not double 2D).

[gszeszycki]

♠ A10xx

♥ x

♦ 10xx

♣ Q10xxx

 

1H - p - 1S - p

2C - p - p - (2D)

Dbl - p - ??

 

The only reasonable reason for the X is take out and near top for previous 2c bid and almost assuredly a hand with 2 spades or less (way too easy to bid 2s over 2d)

but not so distributional that defending 2d is out of the question (we might choose 3c with such a hand vs x). My best guess is a hand similar to x AKxxx xx AKxxx

or maybe even a tad stronger. Since my original pass over 2c might have been made with xx (vs void in hearts) suddenly my useful ACE and FIVE CARD trump support and SHORTNESS in hearts with massive trump fit a hand that was easily worth 3c over 2c (if p can realize it might be a distribution based raise) must now come alive and bid 5c and the opps will cower in fear about ever reopening again against us.

[jjbrr]

I'd just bid 3♣. ♦Txx sucks, stiff ♥ may or may not be bad, the ♠ arent good.

[bluecalm]

I consider 3♣ very serious underbid.

My choice is between 4♣ or 3♦.

I think 3♦ may not be clear at all so I am going with 4♣ for the sake of simplicity (I assume 2♣ is natural promising 4+)

[rogerclee]

4C

[Phil]

Good advertisement for transfers over 2♣. I would feel slightly uneasy passing 2♣, although in standard methods, 3♣ is an overbid. Getting to 3♣ quickly may allow us to bid game, or preempt a balance.

 

Now I cannot bid less than 4♣. We have boxed our hand and its inconceivable that 10 tricks isn't easy.

 

4♣ eliminates 3N as an option however, so 3♦ should at least be considered. 3N seems easier across from a hand like: xx AKxxx Ax AKxx, although this hand seems well-picked. Maybe others can come up with better examples of hands where 3N is far superior to 5♣.

[jjbrr]

I guess I bid 3♣ more liberally than most as opener with a strong two suiter.

[Jlall]

I view partner's double as hoping for a penalty and x AKxxx Kxx Axxx would be fine, he knows we have a stiff heart very often and he has a stiff spade etc. Either we have somee diamonds or long clubs and will bid 3C. I think partner will double with a lot of 1534 hands quite aggressively. Getting them on this auction should be a priority over finding a game because it should be a very easy situation to get them.

 

Indeed opposite that hand it might be right to pass even with our actual hand (not that we'd ever do that). I would just bid 3C. We need a ton to make game, and I don't think partner has shown that.

[gnasher]

I view partner's double as hoping for a penalty and x AKxxx Kxx Axxx would be fine, he knows we have a stiff heart very often and he has a stiff spade etc. Either we have somee diamonds or long clubs and will bid 3C. I think partner will double with a lot of 1534 hands quite aggressively. Getting them on this auction should be a priority over finding a game because it should be a very easy situation to get them.

 

Indeed opposite that hand it might be right to pass even with our actual hand (not that we'd ever do that). I would just bid 3C. We need a ton to make game, and I don't think partner has shown that.

Aren't we fairly close to making game on the example you gave? Add ♣J to it and it's one we want to be in. Add ♣K and we might make six.

[hanp]

Partner had K AKJxx AQx Jxxx. Perhaps you would have rebid 2NT or 3C, it doesn't matter.

 

2D goes for 800, 3NT and 5C make. We scored 150 which lost 2 IMPs plus the matchpoints to -200 for 2D-4 by our teammates.

[Jlall]

I view partner's double as hoping for a penalty and x AKxxx Kxx Axxx would be fine, he knows we have a stiff heart very often and he has a stiff spade etc. Either we have somee diamonds or long clubs and will bid 3C. I think partner will double with a lot of 1534 hands quite aggressively. Getting them on this auction should be a priority over finding a game because it should be a very easy situation to get them.

 

Indeed opposite that hand it might be right to pass even with our actual hand (not that we'd ever do that). I would just bid 3C. We need a ton to make game, and I don't think partner has shown that.

Aren't we fairly close to making game on the example you gave? Add ♣J to it and it's one we want to be in. Add ♣K and we might make six.

It's not clear to me that game is that great with the CJ with partner. If we assume RHO has 4 spades and 5 diamonds I don't seem to be in great shape.

 

Yes if partner has AK K AK then underbidding is bad, I just think people are giving too much weight to that.

[Jlall]

Partner had K AKJxx AQx Jxxx. Perhaps you would have rebid 2NT or 3C, it doesn't matter.

 

2D goes for 800, 3NT and 5C make. We scored 150 which lost 2 IMPs plus the matchpoints to -200 for 2D-4 by our teammates.

I like 2N over 1S but your partner definitely didn't do anything unreasonable.