looking for the right bidding sequence

[jdonn]

Omg, as much as I love saving the space rebidding 2NT is sooooooo baddddddd. Even the stopper itself isn't a good reason since it's anti-positional (in both red suits!)

Well, some bids may not look pretty, but they are more effective than you perceive. How to judge whether a bid is good or bad is not based on whether it looks pretty, right sided, blalba, it should be based on whether it is effective. Here, 2NT to show a stopper is certainly effective when partner holds club support, because it would save 3C for partner and allow you to bid your pattern out, and even allow you to rkc with a void as shown in this case. I am not saying position issue isn't important. However when partner didn't make a certain number of NT bid in the second round, it becomes a minor issue.

 

Still, traditional 4th suit gameforcing isn't very effective. However, within the ineffective framework, some bidding accuracies can still be achieved. Anyway, improving bridge bidding really need an open mind IMO.

I don't recall saying the purpose of rightsiding is because it looks pretty. It's to get to a contract that makes instead of a contract that goes down.

 

Have you considered you may belong in notrump very very often here, and that it almost certainly players better from partner's side? Have you also considered that partner might not be able to show clubs UNLESS we show extra club length? You are catering to save 1 level if partner has club support. Any time he doesn't have club support you have done something bad, and often even if he has club support the extra level will not matter.

[dwunn1]

This is for Mekeh, you can say what you want, but for thoses that will just bid up the line or by-pass a diamond to bid a major are just your "standard" bridge players.

 

KQ65, Q874 Q1042, 8 whats your bid?

10743, K53, KQ974, 8 "

9, A643, Q87654, 96 "

AK54, A6, K8743, 93 "

8, 8654, A1087432, 8 "

8, 8654, A654, Q753 "

654, 863, AQ5, 8743 "

J954, Q6, 87, A10654 "

742,86,AK874, A65 "

Q104, KJ5, J6543, Q9 "

KJ83, void, A64, K108742 "

AQ5, A843, 10,2, AQJ5 "

Your partner has opened 1 club, no interference.

and here partner opens 1 club and responder bids 1 diamond, so now it's openers bid after the 1 diamond by partner.

AK109, AQ9, 87, 10643 what is your 2nd bid?

A874, 10843m A6, AJ5 "

9643, K108, A104, AQ9 "

A64, KQ95 8, AQ743 "

 

I have no problem with Walsh, anytime you want to go to school I can teach you something. Yes, I can respond with 1 heart with gf values and a 5 carded heart suit. Walsh is so different from Standard, and Walsh bidders should ALERT, in using the 1 diamond approach and even a 1no response and the opener has responsiblity to ALERT as well.

[aguahombre]

deleted

[mikeh]

dwunn1: you may be able to teach me something, but I doubt it is about walsh, lol. whatever you are playing, it is not walsh.

[awm]

Openers natural rebids after 4sf aren't very well optimized. In the auction here of:

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦

 

Opener having five spades will be quite rare yet a cheap bid of 2♠ is reserved for it. Opener having three hearts is also rare, especially if you often raise with minimum 4315 patterns (admittedly some will rebid 2♥ here on 4225 with a heart honor too but this just raises frequency a little). In comparison opener's 4036/4126/4216/4xx7 patterns (all of which presumably bid 3♣) are quite common. It seems like poor use of space especially since when opener has these patterns you often want to try for slam in clubs.

 

Just a thought about a spot where some alternative methods might help.

[mikeh]

Openers natural rebids after 4sf aren't very well optimized. In the auction here of:

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦

 

Opener having five spades will be quite rare yet a cheap bid of 2♠ is reserved for it. Opener having three hearts is also rare, especially if you often raise with minimum 4315 patterns (admittedly some will rebid 2♥ here on 4225 with a heart honor too but this just raises frequency a little). In comparison opener's 4036/4126/4216/4xx7 patterns (all of which presumably bid 3♣) are quite common. It seems like poor use of space especially since when opener has these patterns you often want to try for slam in clubs.

 

Just a thought about a spot where some alternative methods might help.

I have played a relay method where shape is shown, commonest first, and so on...would need to dig up the notes to describe it: it seemed very effective

[Fluffy]

Openers natural rebids after 4sf aren't very well optimized. In the auction here of:

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦

 

Opener having five spades will be quite rare yet a cheap bid of 2♠ is reserved for it. Opener having three hearts is also rare, especially if you often raise with minimum 4315 patterns (admittedly some will rebid 2♥ here on 4225 with a heart honor too but this just raises frequency a little). In comparison opener's 4036/4126/4216/4xx7 patterns (all of which presumably bid 3♣) are quite common. It seems like poor use of space especially since when opener has these patterns you often want to try for slam in clubs.

 

Just a thought about a spot where some alternative methods might help.

I am learning a system based on step responses, appart from maybe wrongsiding NT from time to time I think it should be ok (and you can complicate it to make NT always NT)

[cherdanno]

Openers natural rebids after 4sf aren't very well optimized. In the auction here of:

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦

 

Opener having five spades will be quite rare yet a cheap bid of 2♠ is reserved for it. Opener having three hearts is also rare, especially if you often raise with minimum 4315 patterns (admittedly some will rebid 2♥ here on 4225 with a heart honor too but this just raises frequency a little). In comparison opener's 4036/4126/4216/4xx7 patterns (all of which presumably bid 3♣) are quite common. It seems like poor use of space especially since when opener has these patterns you often want to try for slam in clubs.

 

Just a thought about a spot where some alternative methods might help.

A simple fix is to allow 2♥ rebids with 4225, and to invert the 2♠ and 3♣ rebids.

[bluecalm]

I have no problem with Walsh, anytime you want to go to school I can teach you something. Yes, I can respond with 1 heart with gf values and a 5 carded heart suit. Walsh is so different from Standard, and Walsh bidders should ALERT, in using the 1 diamond approach and even a 1no response and the opener has responsiblity to ALERT as well.

 

The problem is that by "Walsh" most bridge players understand the scheme of bypassing diamonds if you have 4 card major.

This treatment : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walsh_convention

 

What you are referring to is much less known convention. This one:

http://www.bridgehands.com/W/Walsh_Diamond_Responses.htm

 

You should be aware that if you say "Walsh" 99% of bridge players will think you mean the first one as it's much more popular and always referred in literature as "Walsh responses " or simply "Walsh". Before flaming other posters who actually have a clue you should get in touch with bridge terminology.

[gnasher]

once you know partner has ♠Kxxx but equally likelly ♠KJxx or ♠K10xx anyone knows what the percentage for 4 spade tricks is?

There are 9 spades excluding the AKQ5, and partner has 3 of them. Hence he will have:

KJxx 3/9 of the time = 1/3

K10xx 6/9 x 3/8 of the time = 1/4

Kxxx 6/9 x 5/8 of the time = 5/12

 

With K10xx, playing from the top and taking a marked finesse when they're 5-1 is about 61%. Adding a bit for card-reading, let's call it 65%. Without the 10, you make when they're 3-3, or 36% of the time.

 

Hence you make: 1/3 + 1/4 x .65 + 5/12 x .36 = 65%

[mikeh]

once you know partner has ♠Kxxx but equally likelly ♠KJxx or ♠K10xx anyone knows what the percentage for 4 spade tricks is?

There are 9 spades excluding the AKQ5, and partner has 3 of them. Hence he will have:

KJxx 3/9 of the time = 1/3

K10xx 6/9 x 3/8 of the time = 1/4

Kxxx 6/9 x 5/8 of the time = 5/12

 

With K10xx, playing from the top and taking a marked finesse when they're 5-1 is about 61%. Adding a bit for card-reading, let's call it 65%. Without the 10, you make when they're 3-3, or 36% of the time.

 

Hence you make: 1/3 + 1/4 x .65 + 5/12 x .36 = 65%

plus a fraction for K9xx opposite AQx for stiff J/10 offside or playing for restricted choice when LHO has Jx/10x...or flat out making when either opp has J10 tight(note however that with this K9xx holding, we will sometimes go down when the suit is 3-3, thus meaning that we have to slightly reduce our assessment of 3-3 chances)

[ONEferBRID]

Openers natural rebids after 4sf aren't very well optimized. In the auction here of:

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦

 

Opener having five spades will be quite rare yet a cheap bid of 2♠ is reserved for it. Opener having three hearts is also rare, especially if you often raise with minimum 4315 patterns (admittedly some will rebid 2♥ here on 4225 with a heart honor too but this just raises frequency a little). In comparison opener's 4036/4126/4216/4xx7 patterns (all of which presumably bid 3♣) are quite common. It seems like poor use of space especially since when opener has these patterns you often want to try for slam in clubs.

 

Just a thought about a spot where some alternative methods might help.

A simple fix is to allow 2♥ rebids with 4225, and to invert the 2♠ and 3♣ rebids.

I like the idea of 2S! as a sort of catchall bid to make more efficient use of the bidding space.... instead of bidding 3C over 2D! ( 4th Suit GF ) .

 

A similar treatment is described in Hardy's infamous yellow book under "Opener's least probable rebid after 4SGF ". His treatment was to aid in the problem hands when Opener had a 4-4 or a 5-6 ( Sp/Cl ) with no 3 card Ht support and no Diam-stop... as an example.

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2D!

2S! - say 2NT

??

3S = the 5/6 hand whereas any other rebid by Opener showed the 4/4 s/c

3C/3D/3H = 4s/4c w/o 3h and no Diam-stop since no 2H or 2NT were bid over 2D!

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On the given hand since 1S shows at least a 4/5, then:

1C - 1H

1S! - 2D!

2S! - say 2NT

??

3C = 4/6 whereas

3S = 5/6 and

3H/3D/3NT would show the 4/5 without 3♥ and no ♦-stop ( if no 2H or 2NT bid were rebid directly over 2D! )

[Fluffy]

once you know partner has ♠Kxxx but equally likelly ♠KJxx or ♠K10xx anyone knows what the percentage for 4 spade tricks is?

There are 9 spades excluding the AKQ5, and partner has 3 of them. Hence he will have:

KJxx 3/9 of the time = 1/3

K10xx 6/9 x 3/8 of the time = 1/4

Kxxx 6/9 x 5/8 of the time = 5/12

 

With K10xx, playing from the top and taking a marked finesse when they're 5-1 is about 61%. Adding a bit for card-reading, let's call it 65%. Without the 10, you make when they're 3-3, or 36% of the time.

 

Hence you make: 1/3 + 1/4 x .65 + 5/12 x .36 = 65%

plus a fraction for K9xx opposite AQx for stiff J/10 offside or playing for restricted choice when LHO has Jx/10x...or flat out making when either opp has J10 tight(note however that with this K9xx holding, we will sometimes go down when the suit is 3-3, thus meaning that we have to slightly reduce our assessment of 3-3 chances)

and if he has ♦Q or ♦J there are possible mencaes in both red suits for a squeeze, all in all close to 70% so a coin toss.

[gnasher]

and if he has ♦Q or ♦J there are possible mencaes in both red suits for a squeeze, all in all close to 70% so a coin toss.

I can't see how you can use the hearts in any squeeze. You might have a diamond-spade squeeze, by ruffing three hearts in the long hand. I suspect that you're overestimating the combined value of that and of Mike's additions.

[jdonn]

Gnasher I think you have to add a lot more for card reading! You essentially said we will only finesse for Jxxx onside when it's right 1 out of 10 times. I would like to think we can do a little better.

[gnasher]

Gnasher I think you have to add a lot more for card reading! You essentially said we will only finesse for Jxxx onside when it's right 1 out of 10 times. I would like to think we can do a little better.

Did I?

 

Assume that it's K1032 opposite AQ4. We ruff three hearts whilst drawing trumps, then cash ♠AQ and lead another one.

 

43% of the time (half of the 3-3s, 1/3 of the 4-2s, 7/12 of the 5-1s, and 1/2 of the 6-0s) we'll already have made, because we'll have seen the jack or it will be marked onside.

23% of the time we'll already be down, because LHO started with Jxxx(+)

16% of the time RHO will have Jx left

18% LHO will have the bare jack left

 

I estimated that we'd make it 65% of the time. That means that on the 34% of deals where we face a guess, we will get it right on 22%, whereas playing mechanically we'd manage only 18%.

[Flame]

A good system might identify that the A♥ is wasted and stop at 6, while less good system might not find that out and get to 7.

I don't think being at 7 should get too much credit here unless you found out about the J♠

[barryallen]

A good system might identify that the A♥ is wasted and stop at 6, while less good system might not find that out and get to 7.

I don't think being at 7 should get too much credit here unless you found out about the J♠

Watching Brink-Drijver over the last few months and have seen similar hands bid to the grand with ease. It just appears that these slams are only put on here as an advert for the strong club approach.