How do you play this double ?

[bluecalm]

1NT - pass - pass dbl

pass- 2X - dbl

 

what if x is ♣/♦/♥/♠

 

I thought it's pretty obvious but recently my friend surprised me with his treatment and he said some other pretty good players play this way.

 

What's your treatment ? What do you think is expert standard ?

[gnasher]

Takeout, regardless of the suit. There's some expectation that opener will leave it in, so it should include some defence.

[mikeh]

Takeout, regardless of the suit. There's some expectation that opener will leave it in, so it should include some defence.

agreed

[Phil]

10 years ago I played this as "they stepped in it".

 

If the double is penalty, I think it still make sense to play it as penalty. RHO didn't think he could beat 1N - why shouldn't we think (strongly) he can't make 2♥?

 

If double is artificial, I would prefer double is takeout.

[jjbrr]

t/o.

 

I think Phil's right if dbl is penalty.

[ArtK78]

I have always played this as penalty with good results.

 

I am sure an argument can be made for this double being takeout, but I was willing to play in 1NT before the opponents balanced so I don't see the need for catering to an opponent's action so that I can find some other place to play the hand.

 

I have always felt that the opponents are more likely to make a mistake in acting over our 1NT opening and that we should not look for another place to play unless our action is clear. This is certainly true when my side opens a weak NT (especially since my weak NT is usually 10-12). But it is often true when my side opens a strong NT.

[aguahombre]

10 years ago I played this as "they stepped in it".

 

If the double is penalty, I think it still make sense to play it as penalty. RHO didn't think he could beat 1N - why shouldn't we think (strongly) he can't make 2♥?

 

If double is artificial, I would prefer double is takeout.

Yes, need more information. Also would, as Art suggests, like to know the 1NT range. If it is 10-12, I need to shut up and just listen to somebody less ignorant about handling that range.

 

If 15-17, what Phil says makes perfect sense. If the balancing double showed specific suits, however --then other takeouts are available, and my double would be sort of half and half --values and tolerance for the other suits.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

 

I play the doubles as takeout and I get more penalties or so it seems.

 

If you have a penalty double, don't you think that partner is short and he will normally make a takeout double.

 

Now we double for takeout and partner passes 'if' he has a penalty type hand.

 

Regards,

Robert

[bluecalm]

NT is 15-17;

dbl is 4-3 or 4-4 in majors 10+hcp;

[cherdanno]

NT is 15-17;

dbl is 4-3 or 4-4 in majors 10+hcp;

In that case the second double is penalty.

[mgoetze]

NT is 15-17;

dbl is 4-3 or 4-4 in majors 10+hcp;

In that case the second double is penalty.

I can generalize this: anytime my opponents play obviously silly defenses against our 1NT, all doubles are for penalty. :P

[655321]

I can generalize this: anytime my opponents play obviously silly defenses against our 1NT, all doubles are for penalty. :P

Sounds like an application of gwnn's law: http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ndpost&p=412164

[peachy]

I don't know what expert standard is. I would have a max pass and ability to either play or defend. It is like 75% penalty but opener can overrule with a five card suit or something.

[MFA]

Takeout, regardless of the suit. There's some expectation that opener will leave it in, so it should include some defence.

A vote for this.

I could add that responder also has the option of bidding 2M on a fourcarder with an unbalanced hand. Opener could then scramble.

 

Going plus is our primary concern here. Conceding a partscore when we could make our own partscore is as costly as missing out on a penalty double of 2 down. We won't get rich by selling out to their 8 or 9- card fits at the two-level.

[hanp]

Takeout.

[Phil]

Some good posters supporting takeout (assuming the double is penalty), although I'm not convinced. Let's try to understand them.

 

3244 would be the prototypical pattern I would think. What other shapes would be appropriate?

[peachy]

Hi:

 

I play the doubles as takeout and I get more penalties or so it seems.

 

If you have a penalty double, don't you think that partner is short and he will normally make a takeout double.

 

Now we double for takeout and partner passes 'if' he has a penalty type hand.

 

Regards,

Robert

Let us assume it goes

1NT (P) P (Dbl)

P (2X) ?

and I Pass [instead of Dbl as shown in the OP]. And the reason for passing is that I have a penalty double of 2X but cannot double because Dbl is Takeout.

 

How likely is it that 1NT opener re-opens his balanced mediocre hand with a Dbl opposite a partner who passed twice? How likely is it that partner knows we have the majority of HCP? Or how likely is it that he knows I have a penalty Dbl of 2X? I would say very unlikely.

 

Which is why "takeout" seems expensive because we have no way to show ownership of the hand and no way to show a penalty double of 2X, at the cost of having Takeout Double available. If someone can demonstrate by sims or whatever clever ways there are that Takeout is better, I am all ears.

[Tomi2]

Which is why "takeout" seems expensive because we have no way to show ownership of the hand and no way to show a penalty double of 2X, at the cost of having Takeout Double available. If someone can demonstrate by sims or whatever clever ways there are that Takeout is better, I am all ears.

doesn't a takeout double also cover the msg that we have the point majority?

 

and what do you do with 7 points 42(43) if they come to 2hearts and your double would be penalty... that way you also have no way to sho the ownership of the hand

 

the information about the ownership can be send in both styles but both on only hands, that have the required shape for the ... double

[ArtK78]

Which is why "takeout" seems expensive because we have no way to show ownership of the hand and no way to show a penalty double of 2X, at the cost of having Takeout Double available.  If someone can demonstrate by sims or whatever clever ways there are that Takeout is better, I am all ears.

doesn't a takeout double also cover the msg that we have the point majority?

 

and what do you do with 7 points 42(43) if they come to 2hearts and your double would be penalty... that way you also have no way to sho the ownership of the hand

 

the information about the ownership can be send in both styles but both on only hands, that have the required shape for the ... double

That is not a "takeout" double. That is a point showing double (sometimes referred to as an optional double, and sometimes by other names).

 

Takeout doubles are supposed to be taken out. In some instances, they do not show much in the way of values - such as this one. They are a means of competing. Presumably, the doubler has some values or else he would not want to compete. But it does not denote ownership of the hand.

[aguahombre]

and what do you do with 7 points 42(43) if they come to 2hearts and your double would be penalty... that way you also have no way to sho the ownership of the hand

 

2S. two places to play, with only 4S (no xfer, last round). We can't play it in 2NT, because that would be a scramble for the correct minor.

 

This is my answer to "if double would be penalty", and what we do in partnerships where double would be penalty. Not advocating one choice or the other about the double. But Pass would deny ownership of the hand :)

[bluecalm]

So I thought double is for take out and that is "expert standard".

However my friend told me he thinks it should be for penalty.

In sequences like:

 

1NT - pass - pass - dbl

pass 2♦ - ?

 

We can bid 2♥ with both majors for example or like aguahombre suggested to show "2 places to play".

 

I am not convinced because I still just want to just double with my 3-4-2-4 6-8hcp as partner may well have KQJT in their suit and leave it in.

Also if their bid is 2♥ or 2♠ not being able to double seems to be very costly (especially after 2♠) as we can have like 24hcp and 9 card minor fit.

 

As to question how often will partner reopen if we pass. I think probably not that often. I think he needs "pure" hand to do that (nice values, xx in their suit).

[fred]

Some good posters supporting takeout (assuming the double is penalty), although I'm not convinced.

Me neither.

 

Undiscussed I would certainly assume penalty according to the over/under principle (DBLs are penalty if the DBLer is sitting over the player who has shown length in the suit bid and takeout if the DBLer is sitting under that player). I am really surprised by the consensus vote for takeout.

 

If I were to discuss such things with my partner (as I would if I was playing seriously), I would suggest that we use the over/under principle to define what responder's DBLs mean whenever the opening bid is 1NT and responder has already passed once.

 

In my experience, this simple principle works very well. In my experience, the even simpler "all low-level DBLs are for takeout" does not work as well.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[peachy]

doesn't a takeout double also cover the msg that we have the point majority?

No. Takeout double shows shortness in their suit and by nature, takeout doubles are normally "taken out". For offensive hand, ownership of the hand in HCP is not a requirement and seldom it is needed to successfully compete.

[pooltuna]

Some good posters supporting takeout (assuming the double is penalty), although I'm not convinced.

Me neither.

 

Undiscussed I would certainly assume penalty according to the over/under principle (DBLs are penalty if the DBLer is sitting over the player who has shown length in the suit bid and takeout if the DBLer is sitting under that player). I am really surprised by the consensus vote for takeout.

 

If I were to discuss such things with my partner (as I would if I was playing seriously), I would suggest that we use the over/under principle to define what responder's DBLs mean whenever the opening bid is 1NT and responder has already passed once.

 

In my experience, this simple principle works very well. In my experience, the even simpler "all low-level DBLs are for takeout" does not work as well.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Doesn't this violate one of the three main Fora principles? Which are of course

1] All Doubles are take out

2) no pass is forcing

&

3) protecting partner is the lowest priority

 

:D