What is this?

[jillybean]

1N:2♠*

3♣:4♦

4♥

 

Playing 2/1, with kickback.

2♠ is take out to the minors, 4♦ slammish with diamonds.

How do you play 4♥ here?

[kenrexford]

You want responses from all the folks who already play this?

 

I'd suspect 4♥ should be kickbak. What else? Natural? Seems much more useful to use Kickback here.

[Winstonm]

You want responses from all the folks who already play this?

 

I'd suspect 4♥ should be kickbak. What else? Natural? Seems much more useful to use Kickback here.

Agree with Kickback Ken on Kickback, Ken.

[jillybean]

With 4♥ kickback then 4N is either a heart cue OR

no tolerance for ♦'s and a desire to play in nt, depending on agreement.

 

1N:2♠*

3♣:4♦

4N

[helene_t]

Opener is not in a position to decide whether cuebiding or keycard asking is more useful. This is for responder to decide. So you need to agree whether we ask keycards or not. Assuming the agreement is that we do ask for keycards, then it's better to let opener show keycards immediately rather than asking for them.

 

Maybe something like:

4♥ two keycards, now 4♠ asks for the queen.

4♠ three keycards no queen.

4NT suggestion to play with one keycard.

5♣ three keycards plus queen.

5♦ suggestion to play with one keycard.

Higher bids: four keycards.

 

Oh well maybe we shouldn't bypass 4NT with only one keycard.

[dake50]

Liking Helene T, what else is jump 4D but taking captaincy? Answer keys.

Wish I had discussed similar jumps in my partnership.

[jillybean]

Thanks Helene, this is good stuff to disucss with my partner.

[kenrexford]

Of course 4♦ could be RKCB for diamonds. Or, 4♦ could be asking for answers starting with 4♠ if good support but 4♥ as waiting. Or, 4♦ could be anything and request anything.

 

But, if the agreements are simply that 4♦ shows a slam hand and kickback is played, then 4♥ is kickback. A discussion for the next time might make sense.

[ArtK78]

What's wrong with a simple cue bid here? Responder is showing some undefined hand with long diamonds and slam interest. Opener has a NT opener (we were not told whether it was weak or strong, but I assume strong). Clearly, responder has taken captaincy, as opener's hand is far better defined than responder's hand. So Kickback seems wrong. Showing keycards might be right, but since responder may have a void it is not clearly right. A simple cue bid of a first-round heart control seems like a good idea here.

 

Besides, if all responder wanted to know was the number of aces and kings opener had, he could have used (gasp!) Gerber over the 1NT opening (am I allowed to use the G-word on this site?).

[jjbrr]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

[gnasher]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

I think that given the agreements this is clearly Kickback. 4♦ set diamonds as trumps; therefore 4♥ is Kickback.

 

I never have any Kickback disasters, because I don't play it. That's not because of fear of misunderstandings, but because I think it's a waste of a useful cue-bid.

[andy_h]

If there's no other way to set diamonds, then I would like 4♦ to just set it as trumps to be followed by cuebidding so we can avoid silly slams if we're off AK in a suit.

[jillybean]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

I think that given the agreements this is clearly Kickback. 4♦ set diamonds as trumps; therefore 4♥ is Kickback.

 

I never have any Kickback disasters, because I don't play it. That's not because of fear of misunderstandings, but because I think it's a waste of a useful cue-bid.

4N becomes your ♥ cue bid.

[jjbrr]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

I think that given the agreements this is clearly Kickback. 4♦ set diamonds as trumps; therefore 4♥ is Kickback.

 

I never have any Kickback disasters, because I don't play it. That's not because of fear of misunderstandings, but because I think it's a waste of a useful cue-bid.

Oh i see. She said playing kickback. I remember from a previous thread that JB plays 4m as kickback. I was surprised that everyone could extrapolate that 4♥ would become kickback instead.

[jillybean]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

I think that given the agreements this is clearly Kickback. 4♦ set diamonds as trumps; therefore 4♥ is Kickback.

 

I never have any Kickback disasters, because I don't play it. That's not because of fear of misunderstandings, but because I think it's a waste of a useful cue-bid.

Oh i see. She said playing kickback. I remember from a previous thread that JB plays 4m as kickback. I was surprised that everyone could extrapolate that 4♥ would become kickback instead.

A raise to 4m is minorwood for me but I don't think it applies on this auction.

4♥ kickback was not clear since there was only an implicit agreement on ♦ trump.

[jjbrr]

I think 4♦ definitely sets trumps. I wouldn't bid 4♥ undiscussed if i wanted partner to answer keycards.

[Phil]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

Because my partnerships have firm rules about kickback in sequences like this.

 

Jilly, it seems you are loading alot onto the 2♠ response. Am I the only one that is horrified by having to mention diamonds at the four level to suggest the suit as trump?

[gnasher]

4N becomes your ♥ cue bid.

Indeed, but that's rather less useful than a 4♥ cue-bid. Over 4♥ partner can bid 4♠; over 4NT he can't.

[ArtK78]

4N  becomes your ♥ cue bid.

Indeed, but that's rather less useful than a 4♥ cue-bid. Over 4♥ partner can bid 4♠; over 4NT he can't.

True, but, if you have the agreement that 4♥ is kickback and 4NT replaces the heart cue bid, you cue bid spades before hearts. Bypassing 4♠ to cue bid 4NT (hearts) implies no spade control.

[jillybean]

Wow. I can't believe everyone automatically thinks this is kickback. I'm glad none of you ever have any kickback disasters!

Because my partnerships have firm rules about kickback in sequences like this.

 

Jilly, it seems you are loading alot onto the 2♠ response. Am I the only one that is horrified by having to mention diamonds at the four level to suggest the suit as trump?

Yes, perhaps I am. I play 2♠ is weak take out to the minors OR slammish in a minor. What are the alternatives?

[helene_t]

You could play 4-way transfers:

2♠->clubs

2NT->diamonds

 

or, if you want 2NT as a natural invite:

2♠->clubs, or invitational with diamonds

3♣->diamonds, either weak or slamish

 

If you need both 2NT and 3♣ for other purposes so that all weak or slamish minor 1-suiters go into 2♠, then maybe (I am just making this up):

2♠, then 3♥: slamish with clubs

2♠, then 3♠: slamish with diamonds

2♠, then 3NT: 5-5 minors, nonforcing but some slam interest

2♠, then 4♣: 5-5 minors, opener now sets trumps with

.....4♦->clubs,

.....4♥->diamonds

[gnasher]

4N  becomes your ♥ cue bid.

Indeed, but that's rather less useful than a 4♥ cue-bid. Over 4♥ partner can bid 4♠; over 4NT he can't.

True, but, if you have the agreement that 4♥ is kickback and 4NT replaces the heart cue bid, you cue bid spades before hearts. Bypassing 4♠ to cue bid 4NT (hearts) implies no spade control.

So:

- We can't cue-bid spades and then bid Keycard

- We can't cue-bid hearts, cue-bid spades and then bid Keycard

[aguahombre]

If your system (2s first response) is a given, then Helene's point that 4m not only sets trump, but also is minorwood makes total sense. U don't need a minor raise to know you have a fit because of the NT opening bid.

 

Opener should not be the one in charge of this auction, so KB from that side is not a good idea.

 

These things don't seem to come up in MSS or Walsh Relay auctions, but that is a whole new hijack.