ATB?

[TylerE]

North:

 

♠ Jxx

♥ AJTxx

♦ Qx

♣ Axx

 

South:

 

♠ A

♥ Kx

♦ Axxx

♣ Kxxxxx

 

Club MP game, west dealt and passed... unopposed auction:

 

1♥ - 2♣

3♣ - 4N

5♥ (2/no Q) - 6♣

 

Was down a lot with QJTx of trumps with west and the heart hook off.

[gwnn]

3♣ is very bad.

[kfay]

IDK what kind of system you play but nobody I know bids 3♣ with the N hand.

[aguahombre]

Yeh, nail that 3C bid, everyone. Then, knowing what both hands are, and how badly everything broke, let's figure out what sequence of bids would have been better.

 

I, personally, think 4NT was an ugly blast. But, am trying to contruct a decent sequence after a mark-time 2H rebid which would end in a good game contract (which would also fail in this case).

[Phil]

Not a fan of 3♣. 2♥ for me, although a lot would bid 2N, which I like only slightly better than 3♣.

 

Not the world's worst slam BTW. Its tricky to judge the exact percentages, because with a diamond lead through the K and trumps 3-1 pretty much spells doom.

 

You might get a diamond lead on this bidding away from the King too (which makes an interesting play problem) and even if you don't, I make it at about a little over 50% but I might be off a little.

[pooltuna]

IDK what kind of system you play but nobody I know bids 3♣ with the N hand.

well 3♣ > pass. What call do you suggest, GWNN, since you hate 3♣ so much

[gwnn]

2 hearts. 3♣ should promise 4 cards.

[ONEferBRID]

My oh my... another 1H open with a 2/1 GF response giving them fits.

See the relatively recent thread in this forum ( Resolving your fit ) :

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=39035

 

1H - 2C!

2H! ( minimum w/ or w/o 4s )    - 2S! ( asks which )

2NT!* ( no 4s )    - ?? Explore for a magic hand** for Cl slam or settle in Ht game

         since you really don't have many extras opposite a minimum;

         and 3NT may not be attractive with 4 cards Sp at most.

 

                 - 3D! ( 3om ) asks for extra Ht length

??

3H = 6+Hts

3NT = only 5h

 

After 3NT >> 4H = sign-off

________________________________________

 

* A direct 2NT ( over 2C! ) would show extras and no 4s

(eg. possibly balanced NT hcp but is not opened 1NT with a 5 cd Major )

 

** Magic hand for Opener:

x x x

A Q J x x

K x

A x x

( in which 6C would have excellent chances with a decent trump split )

[mike777]

North:

 

♠ Jxx

♥ AJTxx

♦ Qx

♣ Axx

 

South:

 

♠ A

♥ Kx

♦ Axxx

♣ Kxxxxx

 

Club MP game, west dealt and passed... unopposed auction:

 

1♥ - 2♣

3♣ - 4N

5♥ (2/no Q) - 6♣

 

Was down a lot with QJTx of trumps with west and the heart hook off.

If you play a style where 2h promises 6 then I think rebidding 2nt which limits your hand and shows your shape is better than an unlimited 3c rebid. On this one north has 11-13 and scattered hcp and balanced shape, 2nt should be easy, assuming 2h promises 6h.

 

 

Strain to have 4 clubs to raise to 3c, in a not extra showing style, if possible.

 

 

In any event if 3c can only show 3 and not promise extra shape or strength then south needs to pull way back.

[aguahombre]

In any event if 3c can only show 3 and not  promise extra shape or strength then south needs to pull way back.

This, and the rest of Mike's post, show the importance of style ---and why the blame cannot be assessed in a vacuum.

 

Some people play the 2C response as 2+, some as 4+, some as 5+. If it is not 5+, then 3C sucks and the 2H rebid (or an artificial 2D)has to be used with a whole lot of hands.

 

Some people like the 2NT rebid to show extras. Others at least would like to show 3-3 in the reds for a size/shape rebid, so they cannot choose 2NT, and the 2H rebid has to cover that problem, too.

 

For those of us who play 2c=5+, 3C is not so horrible. But repeating what Mike said, responder needs to chill out and explore for strain and level. (Don't want to hear how awful the style of 5+ is, since other agreements make this workable for us.)

 

All that said, this is a tough hand for everyone, and the four-zero club split doesn't help matters. We might end up in 6C, or 5C, or 3N, or 4H ---all depending on styles --some better than others to cope with this particular hand.

 

There will be no agreement on this hand because no-one will agree on the system being used.

[gwnn]

Of course there is a number of possible styles. I think that letting opener bid 3♣ on random 5(32)3's as well as 5♠4♣ and 19 hcp is not a good style. I hope this does not mean that I am in a vacuum.

[helene_t]

Prefer a 2♦ catch-all or otherwise 2NT but 2♥ is surely better and more mainstream than 3♣.

[Jlall]

I'm sure we've all been in worse ones than this.

 

On a spade lead you're about 50/50, on a diamond lead you need the DK on or the clubs 2-2, if the opps don't lead from a king that often then it's worse but if they do you're definitely better than 50/50.

 

I think your auction sucked but its hard to atb for getting to a whatever contract.

[jdeegan]

;) Playing either SAYC or 2/1:

a. 1♥ is fine

b. 2♣ is OK

c. 3♣ is bad - 3♣ tends to show extra values, either distributional with 4 card support or with three and 15+ in dummy points either way. 2♥ is THE correct bid with any min unless you have a (weird) agreement that it shows 6 or more.

d. 4NT is from hunger. You have an easy 3♦ bid to start the investigation for some number of clubs or NT. For all you know you might have 7♣. In this case, you might overcome partner's ill-judged (i.e. bad) 3♣ bid.

[aguahombre]

I'm sure we've all been in worse ones than this.

 

On a spade lead you're about 50/50, on a diamond lead you need the DK on or the clubs 2-2, if the opps don't lead from a king that often then it's worse but if they do you're definitely better than 50/50.

 

I think your auction sucked but its hard to atb for getting to a whatever contract.

I find more useful information in this post than I do in the ones which focus on judging how awful the 3C raise was, without offering how an auction would go to let one partner or the other decide whether they want to be in 5C or in 6C.

 

Maybe they would end in a different strain, but how would those auctions go? What would those auctions mean? Would the partnership know what they were doing?

 

In other words, how about something helpful rather than parroting the dislike for a style in which 2C shows 5+ and 3C shows support.

 

By the time the auction passes 3NT, we would have the information we need, but probably not the judgement, to stop in 5C, unless it was a good day. Someone, please show something other than distain for the 3C bid. Show an auction.

[junyi_zhu]

North:

 

♠ Jxx

♥ AJTxx

♦ Qx

♣ Axx

 

South:

 

♠ A

♥ Kx

♦ Axxx

♣ Kxxxxx

 

Club MP game, west dealt and passed... unopposed auction:

 

1♥ - 2♣

3♣ - 4N

5♥ (2/no Q) - 6♣

 

Was down a lot with QJTx of trumps with west and the heart hook off.

that's unlucky. North can bid a natural 2NT if he plays standard treatment, or 2H if he doesn't think half stoppers are adequate for 2NT.

[mike777]

I can understand a style that forces you to pass the north hand but lets assume 1h is forced. :)

 

Since this is almost a 9 loser hand I just want to limit my hand fast and if I assume 2h shows 6 or 2d rebid by opener is natural but does not promise or deny extras then:

 

 

 

1h=2c(gf)

2nt(11-13)=3c gf

3nt I still dont like my hand. =pass.....

[billw55]

I guess it depends on system agreements. Fundamentally north needs to show a minimum as soon as possible. If 3♣ does that, fine. If not, then 2NT or 2♥. Once that message is sent, south will (should) settle for 3NT. Especially at matchpoints, where investigating 6m then stopping in 5m usually scores badly.

 

On the actual auction, it looks like north believed 3♣ was minimum, but south believed it showed extras, and maybe more trumps. So if this is an established partnership, blame goes to whoever was wrong about the system. If not, then no blame, these things happen with unfamiliar partners.

[Bbradley62]

On a spade lead you're about 50/50

I'm sure you're playing this hand better than I am, but what's your line of play?

[peachy]

ATB, yes. Do not raise a minor with only three cards and a balanced hand. If clubs is our strain, we will get there later. Opener should rebid whatever shows a balanced minimum in their system, 2H in my methods.

[gszeszycki]

S lost all science when they decided to go slamming after 3c. Once the search for MAJOR SUIT FITS has ceased NT is the next viable game spot. after 3c bid S should bid 3d N should then bid 3s to ask for a partial stopper (they would bid 3n with full stop). so far we have 1h 2c 3c 3d 3s at this point S hand improves since N has shown little power in the spade suit. Now a nice simple 4s bid will show slam interest by S and a 5c sign off ends the auction. I assign complete blame on S for going off deep end too soon.

[Vampyr]

Some people like the 2NT rebid to show extras. 

This thread is in the SAYC and 2/1 forum, so the presumption is a strong NT. Is it really sensible, in such a context, to require extra values for a 2NT rebid? The problems mentioned in this thread would seem to apply to an awful lot of weak NT hands opened 1M.

[aguahombre]

Some people like the 2NT rebid to show extras. 

This thread is in the SAYC and 2/1 forum, so the presumption is a strong NT. Is it really sensible, in such a context, to require extra values for a 2NT rebid? The problems mentioned in this thread would seem to apply to an awful lot of weak NT hands opened 1M.

"Some people" did not include me. Some people don't open 1NT with a 5cM.

[aguahombre]

S lost all science when they decided to go slamming after 3c. Once the search for MAJOR SUIT FITS has ceased NT is the next viable game spot. after 3c bid S should bid 3d N should then bid 3s to ask for a partial stopper (they would bid 3n with full stop). so far we have 1h 2c 3c 3d 3s  at this point S hand improves since N has shown little power in the spade suit. Now a nice simple 4s bid will show slam interest by S and a 5c sign off ends the auction. I assign complete blame on S for going off deep end too soon.

Very close to our auction. Exact up to 3D; then, 3H-3S-3NT(Spade partial).

 

At this point, 4C by South clears everything up for North --who heretofor had been cooperating with a NT probe. North now knows that South was, in fact, making real cues for slam and is inviting a club slam. They both know that North has a sub NT opening with a wasted quack in spades. North is on the weak side for his opening bid, with only 3 clubs; and he declines slam.

 

1H-2C

3C-3D

3H-3S

3N-4C

5C

 

With an expected spade lead, a club contract seems better than 3NT. The better 3NT looks for overtricks, the better 6C looks; so we are back to very little blame for the OP's less informed blast to 6C.

[Vampyr]

Some people like the 2NT rebid to show extras. 

This thread is in the SAYC and 2/1 forum, so the presumption is a strong NT. Is it really sensible, in such a context, to require extra values for a 2NT rebid? The problems mentioned in this thread would seem to apply to an awful lot of weak NT hands opened 1M.

"Some people" did not include me. Some people don't open 1NT with a 5cM.

Still, "those people" (not including aguahombre), might consider rebidding 2NT with a weak NT and have lots of bids available for stronger hands. Especially if they are playing SAYC and not 2/1 GF -- now they will have the opportunity to play 2NT instead of being forced higher.

 

Does anyone know of any real or perceived advantages to the other approach?