Choose your bid

[junyi_zhu]

How is this guy not banned, or at the very least his posts in this thread deleted? He just completely hijacked this thread with nonsense. What a joke, if there were ever any time for moderation...

 

All,

 

Flytoox is a very old forum member. I used to always like reading his posts. It's a shame that when he comes back, this is what happens to his thread. I apologize for my part in instigating some of this, but out of respect for flytoox can we just ignore the trolls?

 

Flytoox,

 

It is funny because this is one of my "pet peeves" when people overcall rather than double with this shape. I'd go so far as to say almost all experts double, and most non-experts overcall.

 

Doubling is much more flexible with this hand, and does not risk getting to a silly fit ever. It not only increases your chance of getting to a good fit (or NT), it increases your safety level (imagine how bad p p X p p p would be in 2D). Yes, sometimes you will get to 2H in a 4-3 fit, but that's not the end of the world. It's funny that people fear that so much but don't fear 5-1 diamond fits.

 

If partner has the values for game it probably won't matter much which choice you choose.

Although I slightly prefer double, the claim that all experts would double with this hand is too strong a claim to me. You can actually win this hand by bidding 2D, for example:

1S 2D 2S 3D with xxx Kxxx xxxx Kx, after a double, it's certainly not easy to find 3D.

2D looks like a natural bid with a fine 5 card suit and adequate playing value IMO. Suppose in an indy, my unknown partner overcalls 2D with this hand, I just don't think I can judge from this bid that he isn't a good player.

[jdonn]

Gwnn you are too nice. As for H_Karluk he should be banned. I have one mother and that is quite enough, I don't need another who does nothing but lecture people who haven't done anything wrong, about a topic he doesn't understand in a language he doesn't understand.

[flytoox]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sakt93ht8dt83ckq7&w=sqj84h732dj4c9842&e=s72hqj9dak965cat3&s=s65hak654dq72cj65]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Let's try to get back to bridge itself.

 

The full hand is shown above.

 

I choose dbl at the table and lefty passed, pd bid 2C and was passed around to south, now he dbled and was passed out. down 2.

 

Pass would be the winning call with this hand, but I still think do sth will win more than lose.

 

As many of you reasoned (not just claim), dbl is better than 2D I think.

 

Another interesting question is: should West bid 1N or 2C with that holding?

 

I am very happy one of poster (awm) raised the follow-up question and would be more happy to read you all's opinions about the pros and cons of 1N vs 2C.

[gwnn]

At the risk of sounding dogmatic and abusive, I think 1NT from West is a bad bid. 1NT should show a nominal range of roughly 8-10 points with average 11 counts and average 7 counts routinely included if you don't have a good alternative. A crappy 4 count should not ever be included.

[Jlall]

You can actually win this hand by bidding 2D, for example:

1S 2D 2S 3D with xxx Kxxx xxxx Kx, after a double, it's certainly not easy to find 3D.

The standard for a bid to be good or possibly good shouldn't be that you can win sometimes by bidding it. You can also win easily opening 1N with balanced 20 counts etc (I can give you an example if you like!).

 

I think you can determine that your partner is not a world class player if he bids 2D. I suppose he could be an expert, most experts have some obvious flaws, especially if they are old and play an oldschool style, so there are few bids that one could make that could make you determine they are not an expert just based on that.

[Fluffy]

gwnn said my opinion regarding 1NT bid already, and what I beleive is the most common expert treatment as well.

[H_KARLUK]

How is this guy not banned, or at the very least his posts in this thread deleted? He just completely hijacked this thread with nonsense. What a joke, if there were ever any time for moderation...

 

All,

 

Flytoox is a very old forum member. I used to always like reading his posts. It's a shame that when he comes back, this is what happens to his thread. I apologize for my part in instigating some of this, but out of respect for flytoox can we just ignore the trolls?

 

Flytoox,

 

It is funny because this is one of my "pet peeves" when people overcall rather than double with this shape. I'd go so far as to say almost all experts double, and most non-experts overcall.

 

Doubling is much more flexible with this hand, and does not risk getting to a silly fit ever. It not only increases your chance of getting to a good fit (or NT), it increases your safety level (imagine how bad p p X p p p would be in 2D). Yes, sometimes you will get to 2H in a 4-3 fit, but that's not the end of the world. It's funny that people fear that so much but don't fear 5-1 diamond fits.

 

If partner has the values for game it probably won't matter much which choice you choose.

Thu May 13, 2010 3:00 AM BBO

 

I asked this question to Minimeck (Matt Meckstroth-24) on BBO. Also logs in with a a star symbol.

 

"Some people say experts double , non experts overcall 2♦, any comment abt that pls? Seriously i wonder the reasoning."

 

You said on this thread those, right?

"The standard for a bid to be good or possibly good shouldn't be that you can win sometimes by bidding it. You can also win easily opening 1N with balanced 20 counts etc (I can give you an example if you like!).

 

I think you can determine that your partner is not a world class player if he bids 2D. I suppose he could be an expert, most experts have some obvious flaws, especially if they are old and play an oldschool style, so there are few bids that one could make that could make you determine they are not an expert just based on that. "

 

His answer is : i overcall 2♦ altho it's not perfect

doubling just too gross of a distortion for no real reason

 

Screen shot filed here.

 

Keep goin' on to live on the edges. I expect much smart provocations by your side. This one was nothing! :(

 

But maybe I shouldn't hope anything from somebody once even LOL to his father's bid on BBF, right?

[flytoox]

Dear H_KARLUK, I am sure you know this:

 

“What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." – Epictetus.

 

 

Can we just focus on bridge?

 

I choose dbl, and my reasoning is pretty much same as Mikeh's. I think his first post to this thread is quite clear about what dblers are thinking.

 

At least, I think we can

 

"Agree to disagree", right?

 

Best,

 

Flytoox

[H_KARLUK]

Dear  H_KARLUK, I am sure you know this:

 

“What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." – Epictetus.

 

 

Can we just focus on bridge?

 

I choose dbl, and my reasoning is pretty much same as Mikeh's. I think his first post to this thread is quite clear about what dblers are thinking.

At least, I think we can

 

"Agree to disagree", right?

 

Best,

 

Flytoox

Dear Flytoox,

 

Hello :(

 

Welcome back to BBF, enjoy please.

 

It would be much fair to see your this message "for all" when offends started.

 

Sure, I am OK to be nice and defend fairplay. I would be glad to focus on "only" Bridge. That's why sometimes I am here. I am not the one who thinks "everybody is entitled to my opinion". But you know, some members pattern are just cut the whole text from some parts and paint it.

 

I give my bid and never judge what the others bid. It's something like say you read ACBL magazine, and say there are 6 panelists. Sometimes six of they give different bids. I take it normal.

 

I only tried to show why I picked 2♦ with some sample hands. Pass, Double or 2♦ bidders may be right or wrong.

 

To be fair I don't think that gives abuse rights to anybody.

 

Best,

 

H_Karluk

[gwnn]

Hi Hamdi,

 

When did the insults start? Which is the post that contained the first insult and what was it?

 

Please answer this. I promise you, this is not a loaded question and I am not playing the God.

[Phil]

I am so bored with this thread. Someone tell me why my mouse is irresistibly drawn to it?

 

Hamdi found one good player that overcalls. I'll bet maxi-meck doesn't.

 

A bet of $100 is on the table friend. All you need to do is find 30% that agree with you.

 

Otherwise, please stop this nonsense.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sakt93ht8dt83ckq7&w=sqj84h732dj4c9842&e=s72hqj9dak965cat3&s=s65hak654dq72cj65]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Let's try to get back to bridge itself.

 

The full hand is shown above.

 

I choose dbl at the table and lefty passed, pd bid 2C and was passed around to south, now he dbled and was passed out. down 2.

 

Pass would be the winning call with this hand, but I still think do sth will win more than lose.

 

As many of you reasoned (not just claim), dbl is better than 2D I think.

 

Another interesting question is: should West bid 1N or 2C with that holding?

 

I am very happy one of poster (awm) raised the follow-up question and would be more happy to read you all's opinions about the pros and cons of 1N vs 2C.

that's unlucky. South may bid something directly over your takeout double, also, he might not double your 2C. it turns out that south achieved the maximum by passing then suggesting a penalty. On another day, he might regret that he missed his H fit.

Still, this example just shows that double doesn't have to be as safe as many perceive. And 2D doesn't have to be as unsafe as many perceive.

[mikeh]

Bad luck EW, good (lucky?) judgment by NS.

 

C'est la vie.

 

BTW, while I was one of the first to post double, and said that I had no second choice, I don't think it fair to suggest that the doublers felt that their choice was perfect, in the sense that it had nothing but upside compared to other choices, of which the most obvious was 2♦.

 

I can't think of a single call that one can make in a competitive auction that has zero downside. So what?

 

As for the followup question, 1N is a constructive call and West doesn't have a constructive hand.

 

I, and I suspect many others, will allow West some freedom to bid 1N on less-than-constructive values if he really has no less horrible option. Whether west should do that on the same hand with 4=3=3=3 shape is a nightmare question I don't have to answer, but on the actual hand I think 2♣ is clear. It's not a nice choice to make, but it seems to me to be less horrible than the 1N overbid.

[Finch]

I think you can determine that your partner is not a world class player if he bids 2D. I suppose he could be an expert, most experts have some obvious flaws, especially if they are old and play an oldschool style, so there are few bids that one could make that could make you determine they are not an expert just based on that.

I know a few extremely good players who would overcall 2D on this hand, playing with a much weaker client. Or rather I know of a few 'frequent' clients who play with a range of top experts, none of whom would ever make a take-out double with anything other than a 1444 13-count if they could possible bid a suit instead.

[dburn]

Would double as East, but would bid 1NT as West. Important using this style for East not to jump to 3NT with some 19 count or other - bid 2♠ first to let partner get out in 2NT if he has the "nightmare" ♠QJxx and nothing. Since I would also double 1♠ with such as ♠xxx ♥AQxx ♦AKJx ♣xx, I really don't want partner bidding 2♣ on four to the ten, and I certainly don't want him bidding 2♣ on three low because he isn't strong enough to bid 1NT.

[flytoox]

that's unlucky. South may bid something directly over your takeout double, also, he might not double your 2C. it turns out that south achieved the maximum by passing then suggesting a penalty. On another day, he might regret that he missed his H fit.

Still, this example just shows that double doesn't have to be as safe as many perceive. And 2D doesn't have to be as unsafe as many perceive.

Yes, normally south would take action immediately after my dbl. In this case, we will endup playing some level doubled contract.

 

If you bid 2D then we may escape. This depends on whether south bid 2H or double.

[flytoox]

As for the followup question, 1N is a constructive call and West doesn't have a constructive hand.

 

I, and I suspect many others, will allow West some freedom to bid 1N on less-than-constructive values if he really has no less horrible option. Whether west should do that on the same hand with 4=3=3=3 shape is a nightmare question I don't have to answer, but on the actual hand I think 2♣ is clear. It's not a nice choice to make, but it seems to me to be less horrible than the 1N overbid.

So mike, what is the min requirement for you to bid 1N after pd's t/o dbl with a balanced hand?

 

Would you bid 1N if the hand given changes a bit to: QJXX, XXX, JXX, XXX?