What is the rebid?

[aguahombre]

[hv=d=s&s=skqtxxxhaqdjxcktx]133|100|[/hv]

 

What is the appropriate rebid for opener after:

1S-2NT (gf J2n)

 

A simple 3S showing extras? or is there a bid which shows extras AND extra trump?

 

Since we don't play J2N, it is just a question. No agenda.

[ArtK78]

3♠ seems right. Too good a hand for 4♠, no shortness to bid, and 3NT is wrong with good spades and a weak doubleton diamond.

 

I am assuming standard Jacoby 2NT responses. No doubt that many of you have improved methods.

[jdonn]

I would bid 3♠. But I'm not sure I have the same idea as some others on what 3♠ vs 3NT shows.

[gwnn]

standard, simplest and worst system is

 

3x singleton

3M max

3N medium

4x 55

4M min

 

so it's 3NT.

[aguahombre]

standard, simplest and worst system is

 

3x singleton

3M max

3N medium

4x 55

4M min

 

so it's 3NT.

Nice eval of what the standard is. If true, I assume you don't use that --from the way you described it.

 

Edit: what is medium, in a strong NT context? And, does showing a stiff over-ride showing extras? While I am asking questions, does showing 5-5 over-ride showing extras?

[gwnn]

No, shortness showing is mandatory, except when you have a good concentrated 55.

 

I think it's just 11-14, 15-17 and 18-19 for balanced. The structure assumes you don't open all 15-17 with 1NT.

[Jlall]

standard, simplest and worst system is

 

3x singleton

3M max

3N medium

4x 55

4M min

 

so it's 3NT.

I thought 3S medium and 3N max was more standard, but I have no idea. It definitely makes more sense to play that anyways.

[gwnn]

What I do now is

 

3C minimum 3D asking

3D not min no shortness

3H not min club shortness

3S not min diamond shortness

3N not min other major

4m good 55.

 

not very good but relatively simple. it allows for some quantitative sequences.

 

anyway I think most people overstate the terribility of the standard structure. but then again, even the most horrible systems/conventions don't matter much in the long run. I mean they will usually come up less than once every session and 50% of the time they will do no damage, blah blah blah.

[aguahombre]

Is "not minimum" referring to top of minimum opening range (as opposed to 11-12), or referring to above 14? Again, just trying to understand.

[gwnn]

It strongly depends on suitability for slam. All things being equal, you'd like at least a Queen above minimum, but with crappy controls you want to show a minimum even with 15 and with great concentration you can show shortness with 12 if you want.

[aguahombre]

Ok, so in a J2N auction, is there ever a time when Responder relinquishes captaincy back to the opening bidder, having in any way described his(responder's) holding?

[Siegmund]

standard, simplest and worst system is

 

3x singleton

3M max

3N medium

4x 55

4M min

 

If you like simple natural bidding, one small variation on the above is 3M = non-minimum 6322, 3NT = non-minimum 5332. In the absence of an agreement I gravitate to that treatment more readily than to the 3-step version (more 'natural', in some sense.)

[gwnn]

Ok, so in a J2N auction, is there ever a time when Responder relinquishes captaincy back to the opening bidder, having in any way described his(responder's) holding?

Not in the most common variations. My opinion is that it's best if it's opener who describes his hand because:

 

*responder is more likely to be balanced (it's always best if unbalanced hands bid and balanced hands relay)

*it's more economical if opener's first bid is already descriptive, and not some asking bid.

 

Anyway for example in my structure

 

1M-2N

3c-3other (not 3d)

 

is natural, length and strength.

 

and also

1M-2N

3d-3x

 

Help suit slam tries are cool :P

[kenrexford]

No, shortness showing is mandatory, except when you have a good concentrated 55.

 

I think it's just 11-14, 15-17 and 18-19 for balanced. The structure assumes you don't open all 15-17 with 1NT.

I agree with a lot that J2NT works better if tweaked. However, I also agree with this general sentiment. If 3NT shows the intermediate, and if you open 1NT with 15-17 and frequent majors, then Opener's 3NT rebid after J2NT shows a sixth spade. Hence, the problem from the post is gone. 3NT describes this hand exactly.

[straube]

I've understood the 3N bid to be medium and to cater to the balanced 15-17. Even if one opens 1M with 15-17 balanced, there are still the 15-17 5422s to account for.

[aguahombre]

My opinion is that it's best if it's opener who describes his hand because:

 

*responder is more likely to be balanced (it's always best if unbalanced hands bid and balanced hands relay)

*it's more economical if opener's first bid is already descriptive, and not some asking bid.

 

Yes, that is what everyone keeps telling me. And that seems to be the concensus of the J2N people. I just keep thinking of the fact that 99.444 percent of the hands which open 1M --and for which responder has support --- end up being played by the Opening bidder. The dummy comes down, and the world can see what it has. there must be some advantage when the defenders don't know exactly what Declarer has, also.

 

It certainly is more difficult for the balanced hand (future dummy) to describe exactly where her honor placement lies. But I don't think it is impossible. Is there anyone else who thinks this is a MAJOR drawback to J2N, to the extent that it is undesirable? I did not intend for the thread to go to this when I started it. The rebid questions were given to me by someone else.

[straube]

My opinion is that it's best if it's opener who describes his hand because:

 

*responder is more likely to be balanced (it's always best if unbalanced hands bid and balanced hands relay)

*it's more economical if opener's first bid is already descriptive, and not some asking bid.

 

Yes, that is what everyone keeps telling me. And that seems to be the concensus of the J2N people. I just keep thinking of the fact that 99.444 percent of the hands which open 1M --and for which responder has support --- end up being played by the Opening bidder. The dummy comes down, and the world can see what it has. there must be some advantage when the defenders don't know exactly what Declarer has, also.

 

It certainly is more difficult for the balanced hand (future dummy) to describe exactly where her honor placement lies. But I don't think it is impossible. Is there anyone else who thinks this is a MAJOR drawback to J2N, to the extent that it is undesirable? I did not intend for the thread to go to this when I started it. The rebid questions were given to me by someone else.

Yeah, just common knowledge that the balanced hand can more easily assess whether there exists wastage opposite partner's shortness.

 

As Jlall and others have pointed out, 1M-2N, 3C showing a minimum prevents the opponents from knowing opener's distribution when slam is out of range (responder simply signs off in game without asking for further description when he is minimum also)

[aguahombre]

so, the singleton is not shown by the opener directly, unless he has extras?

[jillybean]

I've understood the 3N bid to be medium and to cater to the balanced 15-17. Even if one opens 1M with 15-17 balanced, there are still the 15-17 5422s to account for.

Wouldn't you open 15-17 5422's 1nt ?

[aguahombre]

Well, even I might not with 54 in majors, or real x's in both two-card suits. but I am a wus.

 

Edit: actually with a 5cM and a biddable 4cm I would decline to open 1NT

[straube]

so, the singleton is not shown by the opener directly, unless he has extras?

Yes, that's right. We had a very recent thread about this in the arficial bidding forum, but I was asking about J2N opposite limited hands. Still, you might get something out of it.

[aguahombre]

Well, all the answers have been helpful. We have gone far beyond what my "mentees" wanted to know.

 

But, since I trolled my own thread....am still looking for the incontrovertable argument that J2N is a good thing and is worth giving up other uses for 2N -- and other uses for 1NT followed by 3NT --- and natural 2C responses, in order to employ it.

[straube]

Well, all the answers have been helpful. We have gone far beyond what my "mentees" wanted to know.

 

But, since I trolled my own thread....am still looking for the incontrovertable argument that J2N is a good thing and is worth giving up other uses for 2N -- and other uses for 1NT followed by 3NT --- and natural 2C responses, in order to employ it.

Certainly 2N is very preemptive compared to (say) a 2C artificial relay. One has a real job trying to organize opener's responses for maximum efficiency.

 

In its favor I suppose...

 

1) it establishes an immediate GF/fit which helps opener compete (if it looks right) to the 5-level if opponents interfere. It also allows for forcing passes, redoubles to show first round control of suits that opponents double, etc.

 

2) is a lawful asking bid in events where relays are not permitted. Opener (for example) can concentrate on showing various hand features instead of trying to find a fit.

 

3) differentiates 3 from 4 trump in responder's hand

 

4) usually establishes that responder is balanced (unless possibly too big to splinter) and means that responder has at least 2-cd defense for every suit and means that responder's cues will show A or K and not shortness.

[peachy]

Well, all the answers have been helpful. We have gone far beyond what my "mentees" wanted to know.

 

But, since I trolled my own thread....am still looking for the incontrovertable argument that J2N is a good thing and is worth giving up other uses for 2N -- and other uses for 1NT followed by 3NT --- and natural 2C responses, in order to employ it.

The good thing about J2NT GF for your mentees is that it is commonly played by other same level players and it is part of SAYC, a common online and club system [if you call it a system, I guess].

 

Showing shortness on 3-level is mandatory in J2NT even with minimums, unless showing 5-5 on the 4-level - which of course also has shortness - when both suits are good. Even with its faults, J2NT is still better than old Goren GF raise 1S-3S.

[Mbodell]

standard, simplest and worst system is

 

3x singleton

3M max

3N medium

4x 55

4M min

 

so it's 3NT.

I play this in some partnerships, think it is the default standard I would assume with a pickup where we only ticked off J2NT and left it at that.

 

I'd leave the 4M rebid for bare bone minimums. Suitability for slam matters, obviously, so HCP is just a guide, but I'd think even in a standard system (where opening bids are usually 12+) I'd think 4M is at most bad 13s (you are talking about 7222, 6322, 5422 shapes only, and with the first two many 11 HCP will open something), 3nt is like good 13 to 16 and 3M is like good 16 and higher.