When to pull the doubles?

[yaohung]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=shaq10xxxxdqjxxcqx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

1♠ from ur left hand opp then follow 1NT response

 

Question one:

your call?? 2♥ or 3♥ or somethingelse?

 

Question two:

 

assume you choose 2♥ or 3♥ overcall then 2♠/3♠ compete from left hand opps, Partner X as penalty

 

Your call? Why?

 

Question three:

 

What is partner's hand most likely?

[MFA]

4♥. If it doesn't make - just too bad.

If partner doubles 4♠ then that's absolutely fine with me.

[helene_t]

4♥ is too much at these colours and the hand is too good for 3♥. So I bid 2♥, hoping to be able to bid 3♥ next turn, or that p encourages me to bid 4♥.

 

If I bid 3♥, then I have to sit for partner's double since after my preempt, partner's dbls are 100% penalty.

 

Not sure about 2♥-(2♠). I don't think any of my regular partners would intend that as penalty but I could be wrong. I guess I take it out unless I have the specific agreement that it is 100% penalty.

[Phil]

We are r/w? 3♥ is plenty.

 

Gladly sit for 3♠ x'd.

 

: Helene - we've had many discussions about this and I believe the consensus is that x of 2♠ is penalty, although a sizable minority play it as responsive.

[dake50]

Takeout X below 2S, except if ..

Penalty X above 3S.

Best guess X at 3-level.

[mikeh]

4♥ red v white is a BIG position to take...looking at our soft values in the minors and our tatty suit, we know that if the opps say double, we've handed them a bunch of imps.

 

I'm torn between 2 and 3 and would choose 3, I think. Red v white, this is not a sign of weakness and partner is allowed to evaluate aggressively with a heart card and some minor help...his spade length will probably let him judge that suit reasonably well.

 

Edit: if after 3♥, partner doubles 3♠, I pass, happy. If I were the doubler and my partner pulled, that would be the end of the partnership....even if it were 'right'.

[jjbrr]

I'd bid 2♥ and cooperate with partner.

[Jlall]

Too chicken for 4H but with a spade void it definitely has a lot of merit. LHO will often have long spades and just accept the transfer. But sometimes it is partner who has 6 spades and it just looks silly, or LHO cracks with 6133 or whatever instead of bidding.

 

Also if RHO has a 3 card limit raise he might just crack us rather than bid 4S on this auction. I just think 4H is too big of a gamble when RHO doesn't raise spades. If it went 1S p 2S I would definitely bid 4H because now I know they have a fit and will bid 4S a lot more often.

[jdonn]

I bid 4♥. One nice thing about that is you don't have to make a decision when partner later doubles 4♠.

[whereagles]

3 or 4, depending on what I had for dinner.

[Siegmund]

3 and leave the double in, regardless of what I had for dinner.

[gwnn]

2♥ was my first thought but I'd like to bid some more hearts now that I know we're going to get a longer phone number. :P

[OleBerg]

4♥

 

There is a bonus for bidding and making game.

[kfay]

4♥, it's a thrill to go for 500 on air.

[mikeh]

4♥

 

There is a bonus for bidding and making game.

weird how you think that you are the only member of the partnership who knows this.

[cherdanno]

4♥

 

There is a bonus for bidding and making game.

weird how you think that you are the only member of the partnership who knows this.

You think he will bid game with ♥xx and ♦ATx?

[bluecalm]

I would like to play a style where I can bid 3♥ with this hand vulnerable. I am worried most people wouldn't expect that powerful a hand though.

2♥ with them.

3♥ with myself :D

[Phil]

4♥

 

There is a bonus for bidding and making game.

weird how you think that you are the only member of the partnership who knows this.

You think he will bid game with ♥xx and ♦ATx?

Tell me you are kidding.

[cherdanno]

Of course I am kidding. My point is that while partner knows they pay a bonus for bidding game, there are still many fitting hands where he won't dream of raising (unless you have defined 3H as intermediate, where this would be a (sub-)minimum. Obviously I made the most extreme example, but opposite many hands with ♥K and a minor suit game is quite playable, and partner won't raise.

[Phil]

It would be a long afternoon if we always bid as though:

 

partner knows they pay a bonus for bidding game, there are still many fitting hands where he won't dream of raising

 

Curiously, ♣ATx and ♥xx probably results in 4♥ offering 500 or 800 and 4♠ not making - especially if pard has 5.

 

Partner knows we aren't broke when we venture 3♥ in a potential misfit auction r/w. Many have suggested IJOs for this reason.

[aguahombre]

Mikeh, bluecalm, and Phil are respecting the vulnerablility and respecting partner. They would not be comfortable after bidding 2H and seeing (2s) and whatever partner does come back to them. They would be comfortable seeing 3S X come back. I agree with them that 3H is a better partnership bid with an in-tune partner.

 

I also agree with JD that 4S X coming back around would be even easier to live with, but am not sure he was serious about choosing 4H --sometimes his keen wit leaves me guessing.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=shaq10xxxxdqjxxcqx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

1♠ from ur left hand opp then follow 1NT response

 

Question one:

your call?? 2♥ or 3♥ or somethingelse?

 

Question two:

 

assume you choose 2♥ or 3♥ overcall then 2♠/3♠ compete from left hand opps, Partner X as penalty

 

Your call? Why?

 

Question three:

 

What is partner's hand most likely?

seems a normal 2H bid, if partner can't cooperate, 4H may be remote. This hand can easily be a misfit hand after the 1S p 1N auction. After 2H 2S x, it's actually close to stay or pull. If partner is very serious on penalty doubles at IMPs, you can stay, otherwise, it's ok to bid 3H to show this 7 card suit and void in S. I don't bid 3H and I consider 3H is the worst bid among 2H/3H/4H.

[mikeh]

I don't bid 3H and I consider 3H is the worst bid among 2H/3H/4H.

 

I'd like to say that I was impressed by your arguments on this....but I didn't see any :P

 

Which is not surprising since, in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥. Let's see, however, if we can.

 

1. If partner doubles 2♠, you may leave it in or you may pull: that's a lot of help. I take it that with most partners, you'd pull, so let's assume that. If you pull, then they ain't bidding any more, so you lose the chance to catch a number against 3 or 4♠...either of which may be available if you bid 3 or 4♥ initially.

 

So, while I prefer 3♥, 4♥ is ok as well, from the p.o.v. of colleccting a number while 2♥ is bizarre: you will play 3♥ opposite a defensive misfit....and you never collect a number...where's the upside? Not to mention, what do you do if LHO bids 2♠ and partner passes? Bidding 3♥ allows them to make a far more informed decision, including double. While passing seems, shall we say, timid? I am morally certain that anyone faced with this auction would be kicking themselves for not bidding 3♥ earlier.

 

2. r/w 3♥ shows a GOOD hand, in terms of playing strength, unless you are a kamikaze player who thinks vulnerability is for children. The minimum playing strength for 3♥ is higher than the minimum playing strength for 2♥, and it also announces the 7th heart. Thus partner will raise aggressively....yes, he will not raise every time game is good, but he will not worry about Jx being insufficient length. He will almost never raise 2♥ to the 3 level, even in competition, with only 2 card support. If he does, he'd raise 3♥ as well, so bidding 2♥ never gains. So we will miss some games via 2♥ that we would reach by bidding either 3 or 4.

 

3. If LHO passes, maybe rho will compete in our 2 card minor...how happy are we going to be then?

 

As for the choice between 3 and 4: I think that is close and I acknowledge that the 4♥ bidders have some valid arguments. They don't persuade me, but I recognize that this is a close call. But as for 2♥....no thank you. It's the worst of almost all possible worlds.

[jdonn]

Weird, I understood my 4♥ was (too?) aggressive but I think 3♥ is just strange, 2♥ seems like an absolutely normal bid. What's with the desire to preempt with QJ Q outside and a suit headed by the ace as well? What's wrong with simply overcalling on an 11 count but with extra compensating shape and a very good suit?

 

I really disagree that 2♥ never gains, I can think of two ways it gains. Partner has some strength but a misfit and we stop in 2 (it's not unheard of they reopen with a double and penalty pass us even with a suit like this!), or if we bid 3 partner might take a bad sacrifice not expecting all this defense. Or a third way, on a lucky day we find out partner has diamonds and then, even if we decide to play in hearts, we will know to bid a lot if needed.

 

It seems to me like 2♥ is an attempt to describe show our hand and learn what we can, or 4♥ might make and tries to stick it to the opponents, but 3♥ is just a misdescription from someone who is too chicken to try 4.

 

By the way, not to pick on you mike but I can't help myself....

I'm torn between 2 and 3 and would choose 3, I think.

...in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥.

[junyi_zhu]

I don't bid 3H and I consider 3H is the worst bid among 2H/3H/4H.

 

I'd like to say that I was impressed by your arguments on this....but I didn't see any :P

 

Which is not surprising since, in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥. Let's see, however, if we can.

 

1. If partner doubles 2♠, you may leave it in or you may pull: that's a lot of help. I take it that with most partners, you'd pull, so let's assume that. If you pull, then they ain't bidding any more, so you lose the chance to catch a number against 3 or 4♠...either of which may be available if you bid 3 or 4♥ initially.

 

So, while I prefer 3♥, 4♥ is ok as well, from the p.o.v. of colleccting a number while 2♥ is bizarre: you will play 3♥ opposite a defensive misfit....and you never collect a number...where's the upside? Not to mention, what do you do if LHO bids 2♠ and partner passes? Bidding 3♥ allows them to make a far more informed decision, including double. While passing seems, shall we say, timid? I am morally certain that anyone faced with this auction would be kicking themselves for not bidding 3♥ earlier.

 

2. r/w 3♥ shows a GOOD hand, in terms of playing strength, unless you are a kamikaze player who thinks vulnerability is for children. The minimum playing strength for 3♥ is higher than the minimum playing strength for 2♥, and it also announces the 7th heart. Thus partner will raise aggressively....yes, he will not raise every time game is good, but he will not worry about Jx being insufficient length. He will almost never raise 2♥ to the 3 level, even in competition, with only 2 card support. If he does, he'd raise 3♥ as well, so bidding 2♥ never gains. So we will miss some games via 2♥ that we would reach by bidding either 3 or 4.

 

3. If LHO passes, maybe rho will compete in our 2 card minor...how happy are we going to be then?

 

As for the choice between 3 and 4: I think that is close and I acknowledge that the 4♥ bidders have some valid arguments. They don't persuade me, but I recognize that this is a close call. But as for 2♥....no thank you. It's the worst of almost all possible worlds.

lol. Did I provide any arguments on this in that post? I am only saying what I would bid over a possible penalty double against 2S. This is a typical simple overcall hand with a good suit and 11 HCP. Perhaps some Canadian (I am sure just some) like to preempt with a lot of HCP, which certainly isn't a normal style in the rest of the world. Also, Josh's reply is certainly what I want to say, 3H is just too weird to me.