Use of 1NT rebid to unbalanced 1D

[mgoetze]

Playing the following sort of structure:

 

1♣ 11-21, balanced or clubs

1♦ 11-21, 4+ Diamonds

1♥ 11-21, 5+ Hearts

1♠ 11-21, 5+ Spades

1NT 14-16

2♣ Strong

2♦ Multi

etc.

 

Let's say I decided to go the last mile and open even 3352 hands 1♣, so that 1♦ promises an unbalanced hand. This would kind of invalidate the natural meaning of 1♦-1♥/♠-1NT, so the question is, what could it be used for?

 

Alternatively, I could have 11-13 bal. hands in 1♣ and 17-19 bal hands in 1♦. The problem is, of course, that it might go 1♦-3♦ (inverted raise) on a 4-2 fit. Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?

[straube]

Why is it important to have an unbalanced diamond? I think a strong club system is better.

 

1D-1H, 1N-single-suited diamonds

1D-1H, 2D-good heart raise

 

1D-1S, 1N-spade shortness

[Echognome]

Phil and I played this and liked it.

 

We used the 1NT rebid for extra strength hands (leaving the jump shifts as pure) and also tightening up the 2♣ and 2♦ rebids.

 

Then we played continuations were simple enough.

 

1♦ - 1M;

1NT - ?

 

2♣ ART GF, 8+hcp, then back to natural

2X (except reverse) 2-7hcp, NF (basically hands where you're trying to get out)

 

Although we didn't include 5♦332 in the 11-13 range in our opener, we did include 5♦332 17-19 balanced hands in there (rebid 1NT then 2NT). Also, if we had a very pure 5♦332 hand, such as xx xxx AKJTx KQx, then we would open 1♦ and rebid 2♦ instead. I.e. we allowed some judgment.

[blahonga]

Play transfers!

 

1D - 1H

 

1S nat

1NT 4+ C

2C 6+D

2D 4+H, weak or strong

2H min, 3card support

3H 4+H, medium strength

other jumps are nat and strong with 3H

 

1D - 1S

 

1NT 4+C

2C 6+D or reverse strength with 4H

2D 4+D, 4+H minimum strength

2H 4+S, weak or strong

2S min, 3card support

3S 4+S, medium strength

other jumps nat and strong with 3S

 

Or let 1D - 1M - 3M be the medium strength 4-card raise and lose the minimum 3-card raise. There are also other ways how to play the jumps.

[Jlall]

Transfers make sense ie

 

1D 1H

 

1N=clubs

2C=6+diamonds

2D=heart raise

2H=heart raise

 

You can use these to distinguish between 3 card raises and 4 card raises, or just good raises to 2H and bad raises to 2H.

 

Being able to transfer to clubs is obviously useful, you can bid 1N with 6-4 in the minors without fear of playing 2C when 2D is correct (because you can bid 2D over 2C). You can also bid 1N with a strong 1354 and then bid 2H without the usual fears of playing a stupid 2C contract.

 

Similarly you can solve the BWS death hand of 3-6 in the reds with extras by transferring to diamonds and then raising hearts belatedly.

 

For 1D 1S you could just do 1N=stiff spade and a 1N bid, which is basically the same thing as 1N showing 4 hearts (unless you wanted to include some 1354s with chunky hearts).

 

Altneratively you can do transfers again like:

 

1N=clubs

2C=6+diamonds

2D=4 hearts not enough to reverse

2H=reverse

 

This is good but you lose having 2 ways to raise which is awesome. If you want to make it sexier you can make it:

 

1N=clubs

2C=4+ hearts

2D=diamonds

2H=spade raise

2S=spade raise

 

You've lost the ability to transfer to diamonds and bid again, but since 2C is the bid that shows hearts you don't need 2 bids to show hearts since it's forcing and you can bid again with reverse values. And now you have 2 ways to raise again (can be to distinguish 3 and 4 card raises, or just good and bad raises, the latter being more useful if you open quite light).

 

Edit: Dammit the guy above beat me to it!

[Jlall]

1D - 1S

2C 6+D or reverse strength with 4H

This seems like it would be awfully hard to untangle, and you lose the benefits of being able to transfer to diamonds and bid something anyways since presumably bidding again would show the reverse hand type.

 

Or maybe I just hate you for beating me to the punch by 8 minutes :P

[karlson]

Edit: I just noticed Justin suggested playing it differently over 1s than over 1h -- maybe that's the best compromise; we didn't really want two different systems. Anyway, I wrote the below without realizing that.

 

I play the transfers more or less as described in two regular partnerships. I've been very happy with the distinction of 3 and 4 card raises (we actually play that the 3-card raise is 2d and is NF(!) which I think is cool (BWDH bids 2n over 1M)), but overall I'm not convinced it's a huge gain. A big problem hand is 1453 over 1d-1s (you more or less have to rebid 1n showing clubs which isn't great), and you'd also kind of like a natural 1n with 1444 hands.

 

I know kenrexford plays the 1n rebid as 3-suited short in M, which seems a little inefficient to me, but maybe he'll chime in on how much he likes it.

 

Anyway, if it were up to me, I would play that the 1n rebid is natural, usually short in M, but leaves you the option of opening 3352 or xx42 hands with 1d instead of 1c. But if you're set on playing a real unbalanced diamond, I think the transfers work pretty well. A benefit which wasn't mentioned explicitly is that it solves the false preference problem -- responder with 2-3 in the minors doesn't have to bid 2d over 1n showing clubs since opener will have another shot with a good hand, so you get to the right minor partial more often.

[Bende]

I play

 

1♦ - 1♥;

1♠ = 4+♠

1NT = 4+♣

2♣ = 6+♦, 11-14 without heart support or 18+ with either a) 6+♦ or b) 5♦-3♥

2♦ = 6+♦, 15-17

2♥ = 11-14, can be 3-card support

2♠ = 6+♦-4♠, reverse strength

2NT = 4♥, 15+; now 3♣ from responder is Jacoby and 3♦ is invite to 4♥

3♣ = 5♦-5♣, game force

3♦ = 6♦-3♥, 14-17

3♥ = 4♥, mediumish but can be minimum with nice honors

 

1♦ - 1♠;

1NT = 4+♣

2♣ = 6+♦, 11-17 or strong as before (also including 18+ with 4♥)

2♦ = 11-15, 5+♦-4♥

2♥ = 5+♦-4♥, 15-17-ish

2♠+ = as before

[gwnn]

nice structures but is 1NT limited or is it the same range as a 2♣ rebid or even wider?

[ulven]

Used to use transfers here. Now believe showing extra strength is the way to go, as Echognome and Phil. But with a different view on reverses/jumpshifts and continuations.

[Phil]

Unfortunately my partnership with Matt is the only one I play T-Walsh in, and we kind of came up with the 1N rebid on our own. Its kind of cool, and has a Gazzilli feel to it.

 

Transfers appear to be more popular.

 

If you like bidding systems, I think you can have a lot of fun with the 1N rebid - and might even be able to structure a relay.

 

Would be interested to see Ulven's system.

[rbforster]

Why is it important to have an unbalanced diamond?  I think a strong club system is better.

You can play both if you only need one balanced range. For example,

 

1♣ 15+

1♦ unbal and limited

1N (11)12-14

 

When I'm not playing two NT ranges, I play

 

1N diamonds

2C nat

2D 4+H (over 1♠)

2M-1 good raise

2M bad raise

 

But to be clear, I think straight transfers are better in a 2/1 context, to cater to the various stronger hands opener might have.

[JanM]

We play transfers much as Blahonga & JLall, but with mild differences. We use 1♦-1♥-2♦ for the 3 card raise, and it's non-forcing. With a 4 card raise, we have lots of options - 2♥ with a relatively minimum opener, 2♣ then 2 or 3 ♥ with 64, 3♥ with a good hand, 1♦-1M-2NT as a splinter raise to either 3 or 4 (3♣ asks for range and splinter). With 3 card support and a good hand, we show shape.

 

I like 1♦-1♠-2♦ as 4 hearts, not enough to reverse, and 1♦-1♠-2♥ as a 3 card spade raise (forcing of course, unlike 1♦-1♥-2♦), and haven't had serious problems with 1♦-1♠-2♣ as including both hands with 6 diamonds and hands with a "real" heart reverse. After 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♦, 2♥ shows the reverse and other bids show good hands and are natural. True, if responder doesn't bid 2♦ we have to straighten things out, but if one of us has a reverse and the other has too much to want to "pass" opener's 2♦ rebid, we usually have room to deal with it by bidding hearts with the reverse and something else otherwise (I confess this hasn't actually come up, so we've just had theoretical discussions about it). If opener just had a minimum hand with 6 diamonds, they can rebid 3♦ over responder's non-2♦ bid.

 

We do open 1♣ with 3352; I don't know whether we'd be able to handle things if we didn't.

 

As for why not a strong club, it would involve a lot of changes to something we've been playing for a long time and would mean our instincts in competitive auctions wouldn't be as good as they are now. Might be worth it, but so far we haven't thought so.

[Free]

I've played 1♦-1M-1NT as a strong relay, 16+HCP. Partner responds as follows:

2♣ = 8+HCP, any distribution (makes the auction GF)

2♦+ = <8HCP, naturalish

 

It's easier for strong hands, but less accurate for part score deals than transfers for example.

[straube]

Why is it important to have an unbalanced diamond?   I think a strong club system is better.

You can play both if you only need one balanced range. For example,

 

1♣ 15+

1♦ unbal and limited

1N (11)12-14

 

When I'm not playing two NT ranges, I play

 

1N diamonds

2C nat

2D 4+H (over 1♠)

2M-1 good raise

2M bad raise

 

But to be clear, I think straight transfers are better in a 2/1 context, to cater to the various stronger hands opener might have.

That comes at a high cost. Unless your 2C opening can show 5 clubs, your 1D has to include 1-4-3-5 and 4-1-3-5 so now it's only 3 cards. More importantly, you have to open 1C with your 15 (16) balanced hands and your opening 1N is a 3 1/2 point range. It may still be worth it, but I'm uncomfortable with it.

[kenrexford]

This is an often-discussed topic. What rebids when opening a truly unbalanced minor?

 

i have played a true unbalanced minor since about 1988. However much i like gadgets in many situations, including the 2C respnse to 1D as and artificial GF with relays, i suppose that the "natural" rebid structure just seems so nice after the 1-level response that I don' reinvent the wheel there. And, I like it. I like knowing that 1D-P-1H-P-2C shows 10 cards in the minors, for example. I like that 1D-P-1S-P-1NT shows four hearts.

[lowerline]

This is an often-discussed topic. What rebids when opening a truly unbalanced minor?

 

i have played a true unbalanced minor since about 1988. However much i like gadgets in many situations, including the 2C respnse to 1D as and artificial GF with relays, i suppose that the "natural" rebid structure just seems so nice after the 1-level response that I don' reinvent the wheel there. And, I like it. I like knowing that 1D-P-1H-P-2C shows 10 cards in the minors, for example. I like that 1D-P-1S-P-1NT shows four hearts.

If a 2♣ rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1♠ a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1♦-1♠?

 

Steven

[glen]

If a 2♣ rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1♠ a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1♦-1♠?

KRex was being tricky - he said that 1♦-1♥;-2♣ was 10+ minor cards, but I'm sure that 1♦-1♠;-2♣ is just 9+ cards, since the 1NT rebid over 1♠ now shows ♥s - sadly a "unbalanced diamond" book was preempted by miles

[MickyB]

1N=clubs

2C=4+ hearts

2D=diamonds

2H=spade raise

2S=spade raise

 

[snip]

 

Edit: Dammit the guy above beat me to it!

Talking of being "beaten to it", where did you first hear of this? Wondering if I need to renounce my claim to have invented it :blink: This was in the context of 1D including both minors either way, so the 1NT bid was useful for overcoming the problem of not wanting to give false preference.

[kenrexford]

This is an often-discussed topic.  What rebids when opening a truly unbalanced minor?

 

i have played a true unbalanced minor since about 1988.  However much i like gadgets in many situations, including the 2C respnse to 1D as and artificial GF with relays, i suppose that the "natural" rebid structure just seems so nice after the 1-level response that I don' reinvent the wheel there.  And, I like it.  I like knowing that 1D-P-1H-P-2C shows 10 cards in the minors, for example.  I like that 1D-P-1S-P-1NT shows four hearts.

If a 2♣ rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1♠ a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1♦-1♠?

 

Steven

I opened 1♣, so this was not a problem.

 

But, had I opened 1♦, or hand I held 1-3-5-4 shape, then I would rebid 2♣.

 

The difference between these two auctions is significant.

 

When partner responds 1♥, Opener can rebid 1♠ with four spades. Hence, if he does not rebid 1♠, he has at most three spades. With 3-3 in the majors, and unbalanced, he would have six diamonds and would rebid 2♦ (or 3♦). Hence, he assuredly has at most 3-1 or 1-3 in the majors when he cannot raise hearts or rebid 1♠. With a flat 3-1-5-4 (or 3-1-4-5 if you want), 1NT stands out (in my approach), such that a 2♣ rebid promises at least 10 cards in the minors (assuming that you also raise hearts with 1-3-5-4 or 1-3-4-5).

 

When the major is spades, I opt to rebid 1NT only when I have four hearts. That treatment means that you have to rebid 2♣ with hands that feature only 5-4 in the minors, but the advantage of promising a fourth heart seems to outweigh the benefit of promising 10 minor cards in that sequence.

[kenrexford]

If a 2♣ rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1♠ a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1♦-1♠?

KRex was being tricky - he said that 1♦-1♥;-2♣ was 10+ minor cards, but I'm sure that 1♦-1♠;-2♣ is just 9+ cards, since the 1NT rebid over 1♠ now shows ♥s - sadly a "unbalanced diamond" book was preempted by miles

Actually, I wrote a short "unbalanced diamond" mini-book (maybe about 40 pages) back in about 1990. I only sent it to one person (cannot remember who), who thought it was insanity to open 1♦ only with unbalanced hands. On that type of response, I ditched the book (damn!) and just played it with all of my (insane) partners. When Miles' book came out, I was a tad vindipissed.

[gwnn]

hey do you have an electronic copy? may I read it?

[kenrexford]

hey do you have an electronic copy? may I read it?

It was typed on a computer that used a floppy disk and had no hard drive. Actually, it was a slick one and had TWO floppy drives. Instead of Word Perfect or Word, I think it used Cuneiform Perfect. I have no idea as to what happened with that disk.

[benlessard]

I like to play 2 under transfers, so its allow responder to invite and stay at the 2 level and to be able to relay for slams,

 

1D----1H

???

 

1S = clubs

1Nt = 6D or 4H 15-17

2C = spades min or GF

2D = spades 15-17

2H = H 12-14

2S and Higher Hearts (GF)

 

1D----1H

1S----???

 

1NT = INV (with paradox responses)

2m = to play

2H = to play

 

1D-----1H

1NT----???

 

2C = multi inv

2red = to play

 

With a setup like this you have to work pretty hard to miss a slam, avoid the 3 level for no reason,

 

Biggest drawback is cannot stop in 1Nt,

[Antoine Fourrière]

Maybe I am not answering the question, but over an unbalanced 1♦, should responder still show four-card majors? It seems to me that 1♥ should merely relay for a possible four-card major, and other bids should cater to five-card majors.