What's Openers Rebid?

[njustus]

[hv=d=s&s=sxxhaqxxdkjxxcqj9]133|100|South opens 1D

W bids 2S

N bids 3 C

W passes

 

What should South revid?

 

Thanks

[/hv]

[Jlall]

It would help to know the hand

 

edit: They edited hand after my post obv

[hrothgar]

This depends on your agreements...

 

1. 3♣ is forcing, so pass is right out

 

2. It would seem better to explore 3NT rather than set clubs as trump. (Contracting for a 9 trick game is easier than an 11 trick game)

 

3. There are different sets of agreements about cue bids

 

Some people would bid 3♠ to ask for a spade stopper

Others would cue 3♥ to show a Heart stopper

[peachy]

Can't pass a forcing bid although sorely tempted...

I would bid 3H, might not even be a suit just stopper. Have partner bid 3NT if he has spades stopped properly. 3S by me sounds too strong.

[pooltuna]

It would help to know the hand

Well you are looking at the South hand so I assume you mean the North hand. I only need to know if 3♣ is forcing if it is you ask for a ♠ stopper with 3♠ otherwise you pass.

[Jlall]

It would help to know the hand

Well you are looking at the South hand so I assume you mean the North hand. I only need to know if 3♣ is forcing if it is you ask for a ♠ stopper with 3♠ otherwise you pass.

Obv they edited the post after my post. Cayuga style!

[jjbrr]

3♠ is obv

[the hog]

3S is not obvious else op would not have posted the question. 3H or 3S is ok. 3H is better if you have the agreement that this shows cards an no S stopper. 3S is better if you have the agreement that this shows a half stopper.

[whereagles]

Well, I think 3♠ is obvious because over it pard will bid 3NT with a normal hand and a stop 110% of the time and that's pretty much what we want, no?

 

3♦ or 3♥ should show, in my opinion, an unbalanced hand.

[njustus]

Turns out that pard had 6 clubs and 4 hearts. I thought pard would have bid his major if he had one. Cue bidding never entered my mind and I rebid 4 clubs ... guess I have a lot to learn.

 

Thanks,

[pooltuna]

Turns out that pard had 6  clubs and 4 hearts. I thought pard would have bid his major if he had one.  Cue bidding never entered my mind and I rebid 4 clubs ... guess I have a lot to learn.

 

Thanks,

Do the responders need to list all the conventions they assume are in place? Negative doubles are so common that I, incorrectly it appears, assumed they were being used. If they were in place then there is no correct (or incorrect for that matter) call because your partner has already hosed the auction. With no negative X and a forcing 3♣ call you are pretty much screwed into trying for 3NT and you might consider adding -X to your conventions.

[gwnn]

Whatever jlall, mike777 would have known what to bid even without the hand, as he says always double or cuebid and now there was no legal way to double so...

 

Anyway with 6♣ and 4♥ it is best to start with 3♣ if you have game forcing values. If you double then you will lose a lot of good games and slams when opponents refuse to shut up as they should :P

[P_Marlowe]

3S.

 

Asking for a stopper, p forced to game, I need to find a bid,

if we play clubs, that is fine as well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Turns out that pard had 6  clubs and 4 hearts. I thought pard would have bid his major if he had one.  Cue bidding never entered my mind and I rebid 4 clubs ... guess I have a lot to learn.

 

Thanks,

Hi,

 

preempts take away space, but responder needs to be aware, that 3C basically buries

the heart suit, in case he faces a bal. opener.

 

It depends of course on your further agreements, but my guess is, that your p should

have doubled, ..., but bidding the 6 carder is certainly not wrong, and there are certainly

layouts / possible follow up, and if he encounters them, he may regret, that he did

bid 3C.

 

That why peoble like to preemt..

 

Depending on your level, you may take a look at Rubens Advances (and similar

agreements): After intervention - responders switches to transfer, that would have

allowed your p, to show clubs and hearts, the price being that the transfer is not gf.

Not showing the gf nature can hurt you as well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pooltuna]

Whatever jlall, mike777 would have known what to bid even without the hand, as he says always double or cuebid and now there was no legal way to double so...

 

Anyway with 6♣ and 4♥ it is best to start with 3♣ if you have game forcing values. If you double then you will lose a lot of good games and slams when opponents refuse to shut up as they should :)

Sorry but IMO this is BS. If you have GF values with ♣s & 4♥ even if the opps interfere you will be getting to your games if they are still in reach as any action you take will show your values.

[aguahombre]

The given auction, where responder starts at the 3-level, is obviously different from

 

1D (1S) 2C

?

 

1) responder is more comfortable with a strong 4-6 in the rounded suits that the heart suit can be shown later, even if clubs are raised.

2) Opener does not need to worry about a probe cue to ask about a spade stop (Responder will be able to bid NT without being asked).

3) You can pretty much use your normal 2/1 rebid structure as if the 1s bid had not occurred.

 

But when responder bids 3C/2S, we are running out of room, and the agreement on whether to bid 3H or 3S with the given hand is crucial. One possibility would be to bid 3S with the given hand, but 3H with similar distribution but (say) QX of spades. This would allow responder to continue the probe if she holds a spade partial.

 

This means 3H might not be a 4-card suit, but opener is willing to play 5C if 3H is raised. (Spade shortness strongly implied, only if QX AKX KJXX JXXX would open 1C.)

 

No, Pool: G's post is not B.S., just a different philosophy from yours, based on different considerations, such as how much you are willing to defend 2S doubled with(say) 0-4-3-6 if Opener has that one hand in a hundred which would pass.

[jdonn]

I don't believe there is a logical alternative to 3♠.

[gwnn]

Sorry Herra Túnfiskur I will need to get back to you tomorrow I wasted enough time for one day on the forums today. Suffice it to say for now that I don't agree with you.

[gwnn]

Whatever jlall, mike777 would have known what to bid even without the hand, as he says always double or cuebid and now there was no legal way to double so...

 

Anyway with 6♣ and 4♥ it is best to start with 3♣ if you have game forcing values. If you double then you will lose a lot of good games and slams when opponents refuse to shut up as they should ;)

Sorry but IMO this is BS. If you have GF values with ♣s & 4♥ even if the opps interfere you will be getting to your games if they are still in reach as any action you take will show your values.

Sorry Tuna but your post is complete nonsense.

 

We get dealt

 

x

KJxx

Qx

AKxxxx

 

Now it goes

 

1♦-(2♠)-???

 

We have two options:

 

Show our 4 card heart suit and almost our values (x should not be gameforcing).

Show our 6 card club suit and force to game immediately.

 

There are obvious upsides and downsides for both approaches.

 

I hope you agree that you should not start with a double over 1♦-(1♠) and I assume you would also double over 3♠ as would I. The question is then just about 2♠.

 

The obvious upside of double is that partner can pass it. The obvious upside of 3♣ is that we don't lose a double game swing on a pedestrian hand like

 

[hv=n=sakxxhqtxxxdaxxxc&w=sxhkjxxdqxcakxxxx&e=sxxhaxdkjtxxcqjxx&s=sqjtxxxhxxdxxctxx]399|300|x and x gives you -590,

 

3♣ and x gives you +600[/hv]

 

Now it could be sometimes that we miss hearts after 3♣, particularly after a start like

 

1♦-2♠-3♣-3♠

p-p-x

 

where opener should first look at his ♠ holding and then his ♥ holding. Couple of things about that:

 

-sometimes we can just bid 4♥ over 3♠ suggesting a good 64 hand

-when partner has less than 4 hearts we're again much better off than

1♦-2♠-x-3♠

p-p-x

 

where we just said "ummmm i have 4 hearts partner and i have no idea what we should do"

 

So overall I'd think 3♣ will find more games. The problem is not that we forgot that we have game on, the problem is that we just have to keep doubling when opps keep bidding and it's better to show our 6 card suit than suggest our 4 card suit.

[hanp]

Obv I bid 3D, catch all, I learned this from Frances.

[pooltuna]

Whatever jlall, mike777 would have known what to bid even without the hand, as he says always double or cuebid and now there was no legal way to double so...

 

Anyway with 6♣ and 4♥ it is best to start with 3♣ if you have game forcing values. If you double then you will lose a lot of good games and slams when opponents refuse to shut up as they should :)

Sorry but IMO this is BS. If you have GF values with ♣s & 4♥ even if the opps interfere you will be getting to your games if they are still in reach as any action you take will show your values.

Sorry Tuna but your post is complete nonsense.

 

snip

 

I hope you agree that you should not start with a double over 1♦-(1♠) and I assume you would also double over 3♠ as would I. The question is then just about 2♠.

 

The obvious upside of double is that partner can pass it. The obvious upside of 3♣ is that we don't lose a double game swing on a pedestrian hand like

 

[hv=n=sakxxhqtxxxdaxxxc&w=sxhkjxxdqxcakxxxx&e=sxxhaxdkjtxxcqjxx&s=sqjtxxxhxxdxxctxx]399|300|x and x gives you -590,

 

3♣ and x gives you +600[/hv]

 

Now it could be sometimes that we miss hearts after 3♣, particularly after a start like

 

1♦-2♠-3♣-3♠

p-p-x

 

where opener should first look at his ♠ holding and then his ♥ holding. Couple of things about that:

 

-sometimes we can just bid 4♥ over 3♠ suggesting a good 64 hand

-when partner has less than 4 hearts we're again much better off than

1♦-2♠-x-3♠

p-p-x

 

where we just said "ummmm i have 4 hearts partner and i have no idea what we should do"

 

So overall I'd think 3♣ will find more games. The problem is not that we forgot that we have game on, the problem is that we just have to keep doubling when opps keep bidding and it's better to show our 6 card suit than suggest our 4 card suit.

sorry but your example hand carries no weight as partner cannot pass 2♠X (assuming sanity}. You seem to want him to look into your hand and see that you have 13 HCP but not at the same time to see your distribution. What happens if you have a weaker -X consequently he has to call 3♣ [oh what a shame for our actual hand ;) )

[gwnn]

Sorry I was talking about 4♠ by South.

 

590 ----> 4♠x= instead of inserting cute little smiley faces you could instead read my post. 590 is not 2♠x+2 it's 4♠. you could look at North's hand and realize that North would not pass our double.

 

1♦-2♠-3♣-4♠

5♣

 

as opposed to

 

1♦-2♠-x-4♠

p-p-x-p

p-p

 

What are you talking about pooltuna?

 

I bid 3♣ when I have GF values and 6-4. 3♣ is already game forcing, he doesn't need to look at my hand. He can look at my 3♣ call instead!

 

That was my point the whole time, when the auction gets competitive we will lose clubs. If you just blindly double to show your hearts but don't show clubs you will often lose clubs.

 

What is it that you don't understand?

[bid_em_up]

And all this time, i thought that a negative double followed by a bid only showed invitational values (not GF). Because if I had a GF call with a qualifying suit, I would have bid it directly, instead of screwing around making a negative double.

 

Or in other words,

 

agree with gwnn.

[aguahombre]

And all this time, i thought that a negative double followed by a bid only showed invitational values (not GF).   Because if I had a GF call with a qualifying suit, I would have bid it directly, instead of screwing around making a negative double.

 

Or in other words,

 

agree with gwnn.

Agree pretty much with this, as it applies to the given 4-6 hand. The generalization about a negative double, followed by a new suit bid might not be completely accurate. It could have less than invitational values in certain auctions --not this auction, of course.

 

To be more clear: a neg double with X KJXX QX AKXXXX is unprepared. a 3C bid, followed by a double later on the given auction is more prepared.