Why have I seen this as forcing/support showing?

[hirowla]

I've seen a particular sequence as forcing or showing support and I'm wondering why. I'm using SAYC as the bidding system.

 

The comparison is with the following sequence - no competition in the bidding:

 

1♥ - 1♠

2♦ - 2♥

 

I see this sequence as a weak preference for ♥, showing 2 in support - if he had 3, he would have bid 2♥ first up (6-9), 3♥ (10-12) or 4♥ (13-15) instead of that bid. In terms of points, less than opening points (otherwise you could use 4th suit forcing) and no guaranteed stop in the unbid suit. As a side question, what would you do if you had an invitational strength hand and no stop in the unbid suit?

 

The sequence I was thinking about is the following:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - ????

 

Obviously the responder is stronger in points. My question is what does 2♥, 3♥ and 4♥ mean here? I would have taken the meanings to be the same except for the point count. But articles I've read recently seem to hint that 2♥ shows an invitational raise, 3♥ is a game force raise and I've forgotten what 4♥ means. It doesn't seem right to me, because you lose the option to show a preference in ♥ when NT might not be an option.

 

Am I missing something here? Is there some length implied by this sequence that isn't in the 1st one? How do you avoid 5-2 fits if you take the stronger sequence?

 

Thanks,

 

Ian

[helene_t]

Hi Ian,

 

4♥ in the second sequence is probably not defined in SAYC, but I would take it as showing a minimum game force. 3♥ could be stronger but could also be based on a hand that is not sure about the strain. Maybe with a 3334 with soft values you would be happy to pass partner's 3NT if he suggests that contract, knowing that you have support for hearts.

 

If you agree with p to bid 4♥ with all minimum game forcing hands (12-14 or so), then it becomes easier for opener to decide whether to invite for slam when you bid 3♥. On the other hand, of opener has some 17 points and still has slam interest even if you bid 4♥, showing 12-14, he will be frustrated since you have taken away all the space available for cuebidding below the game level.

 

There are some agreements you can make to make life easier in this situation but it gets rather complicated. Maybe some other posters have some ideas about that. For now I will just point out that it is not obvious how well-defined the 4♥ bid is. That is something to discuss with partner.

[quiddity]

Playing in a 7-card fit is rarely desirable - no-trump is often a better spot. The problem is that in your first sequence:

1♥ - 1♠

2♦ - ??

 

2NT would now be invitational. Thus with weaker hands responder has to "give preference" to 2H with only 2-card support so that opener, with 14 or 15 points, will pass.

 

In the second sequence, responder has already announced at least invitational values with the 2♣ bid, so there is usually no need to play in a 7-card fit. Responder can just bid 2NT when he has only 2-card support for the major. Therefore, supporting opener's major on the second turn promises 3-card support.

 

I think the "standard" meaning of 2♥ in that sequence is 3-card support, invitational or better. It is forcing, but if opener makes a weak followup like 2NT or 3♥, that can be passed.

 

Not sure about 3♥. I would guess it means very good 3-card support and a slam-going hand. Please start cuebidding, partner.

 

Also not sure about 4♥. Maybe it shows a "picture" bid, a minimum game-force with values only in clubs and hearts, and no controls or shortness in the other two suits.

[mich-b]

I think you are right , and in SAYC style 2♥ should be a non-forcing preference on a doubleton, with about 10-11p. Sometimes the responder does not have a stopper in the 4th suit , so 2NT does not look good, and 2♥ might play much better.

 

I think that many years ago 3♥ (jump preference) used to be played as invitational with 3 card support (ACOL style ?) , but this is now out of fashion , I think.

This does leave you with a problem , of how to show a 3 card limit raise in SAYC.

The simplest (I did not say best) solution is just to bid a direct 3♥ with either 3 or 4 card support. Another solution is incorporate the 3 card invite into a 3♣ Bergen raise, or perhaps into a semi-forcing 1NT response. These are all , of course , additional agreements , and not part of vanilla SAYC.

 

I would suggest keeping 2♥ as a prefernce with 2 ♥s , and finding a solution for the 3 card support invitation.

[hirowla]

Ok, I can understand some of the reasoning now. The only query is what happens if you only have invitational points, 2♥ support and a ♣ suit that is wide open as far as you're concerned? Is it recommended that you ignore the ♣ gap and just bid 2NT, or do something else? As a defender to a 2NT contract, I know what suit I'd be leading!

 

Or is this something you simply take a chance on and blame partner for not having the suit stopped? :D

 

In terms of the 4♥ bid and what it could mean, I guess the principle of fast arrival could be used (not interested in a slam, just the game).

[quiddity]

oops, I just looked at the sayc booklet and I'm completely wrong. Thank goodness I never actually play sayc.

It sounds like the 2H bid is invitational with a doubleton hearts, 3H is game forcing with 3-card support, and 4H is "who knows". With an invitational hand and 3-card support, responder makes an immediate limit raise.

[hirowla]

I guess I don't play strictly SAYC, but I did want to know what it suggested. The SAYC statement is quite obvious. My problem is that I play a limit raise as promising 4 card support - that's why the distinction is important.

 

So I guess I have a choice of risking a 5-2 fit or risking a 2NT bid with one suit wide open. Are there any other reasonably "standard" options to choose from?

 

Thanks,

 

Ian

[TylerE]

Without a Forcing 1N bid, imo 4 card limit raises are unplayable...or at least would require enough science that you might as well just learn 2/1...

[mich-b]

I have seen people use , in SAYC context (without a forcing 1NT):

1♥ - 3♣ is either:

1. 6-9 with 4 card support.

2. 3 card invitation.

 

3♦ by opener asks which.

[Elianna]

Are there any other reasonably "standard" options to choose from?

Adam and I play 2NT as initially showing a three-card limit raise or a gameforcing raise. I can (or Adam can) post the structure if you're interested. (We play SA openings and responses for the most part.)

[Stephen Tu]

As a side question, what would you do if you had an invitational strength hand and no stop in the unbid suit?

 

Am I missing something here? Is there some length implied by this sequence that isn't in the 1st one? How do you avoid 5-2 fits if you take the stronger sequence?

There are always going to be some hands where you are just kind of stuck for a bid. For example 5-2-3-3 no club stop, inv values (so not strong enough to use 4th suit if defined as GF), after 1♥-1♠-2♦-???, or no spade stop holding 3-2-3-5 after 1♥-2♣-2♦-?. You just have to pick the lie that you hate the least. With a partial stop I'd tend to bid NT, hope either partner has help, or the opp's suit splits 4-4, or it blocks, or they don't lead it. With nothing I'd tend to support partner's hearts, 5-2 fits are playable (sometimes only making game!), sometimes partner has 6, sometimes partner can bid NT himself the next round, sometimes partner can show a 5th diamond.

 

 

[1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥

I think the "standard" meaning of 2♥ in that sequence is 3-card support, invitational or better.It is forcing

No, it is absolutely not forcing. It is strictly invitational, non-forcing. If you are playing it as forcing, you almost might as well just play 2/1 GF?

 

One COULD play that 3cd limit raises are forced to bid 1♥-3♥, as awm often insists, so that this sequence is strictly doubleton, but that's not traditional "SA".

[shevek]

In Acol

1♥ - 2♣

2♦ - 3♥

 

is classically invitational only, since 3♥ first time would be 4-card support.

This because 1♥ could be based on four, also to reassure opener of the extent of the fit to help decisions about game and slam.

 

With a game-forcing raise and 3-card support, responder is supposed to bid the 4th suit before raising.

 

Again, a delayed jump to 4♥ is different in Acol. It suggests primary support and a good side suit, the so-called delayed game raise.