What should this bids mean?

[Rado]

Hi all friends

Suppose using natural methods ( 5 card Majors), what about these often seen bids:

1. 1♣-pass-1♥-pass

---4♥

2. 1♣-pass-1♥-2♦

---4♥

3. 1♣-pass-1♥-3♦

---4♥

4. 1♣-pass-1♥-4♦

---4♥

:-)))))))))))))))))

Rado

[paulhar]

1. 1C-1H-4H. Since partner could have about 6 points for his response, opener should have about 20 points and 4 hearts. (say 19+ counting points for shortness.) (Beginners should go forward to #2 now.) If you play splinter bids, there is an implication that opener doesn't have a singleton (or if he does, it's a singleton honor), since 1C-1H-3S and 1C-1H-4D should show the same range with a singleton in the bid suit. If the pair doesn't play splinters, there is no such implication. I'm against these fake jump shifts and reverses planning to come back to hearts (with 4H) because too often the opponents can usefully double for a lead. If you do that, you have to be showing something special, like a hand that revalues to somewhat more than an opening 1 bid.

 

2. 1C-1H (2D) 4H With a student, I would think that #2 shows the same as #1. Some experts might say that 4H is a more distributional raise, using 3D followed by a heart raise with the good hand. This might get hairy if the opponents preempt, so I'm not so convinced that student bridge is so bad. 3D could also be bid with a strong club hand looking for 3NT. (Beginners should go to #3 now.) My regular partner and I play (I assume this is common) that 1C-1H (2D) 4C would show the same hand as 1C-1H-4C without interference, i.e. 6+ clubs and 4 hearts, a game going hand without that many high card points, so for us, the jump to 4H to show distribution isn't necessary and our 3D cuebid in this sequence would just about always be clubs.

 

3. Because we're anxious to show support, I believe that the strength shown by 3H and 4H over the auction 1C (P) 1H (3D) is just slightly less than without the interference. With a dead minimum, IMO opener passes and can show the heart support if responder reopens. I might bid 3H with 15 and 4H with 18.

 

4. Bearing in mind that partner could have a 6-count and four hearts, opener still needs to be cautious. However, you can't let the opponents steal and I might bid 4H with about 16.

[Cascade]

2. 1C-1H (2D) 4H With a student, I would think that #2 shows the same as #1. Some experts might say that 4H is a more distributional raise, using 3D followed by a heart raise with the good hand. This might get hairy if the opponents preempt, so I'm not so convinced that student bridge is so bad. 3D could also be bid with a strong club hand looking for 3NT.

Very hairy I imagine.

 

1♣ (Pass) 1♥ (2♦)

3♦ (5♦) ...

 

If 3♦ conceals heart support then only one member of your partnership is able to make an intelligent decision at the five-level.

 

If you want a cue-bid to raise hearts then you have 4♦ available. I would play this as a splinter but other treatments would be possible.

[Cascade]

1. 1♣-pass-1♥-pass

---4♥

 

I play this as strong.

 

2♥ shows around 11-15

3♥ shows around 16-18

4♥ shows better than this.

 

In addition I can splinter with 3♠ or 4♦ so I will not have a shortage for 4♥.

 

2. 1♣-pass-1♥-2♦

---4♥

 

Essentially the same as the above.

 

3. 1♣-pass-1♥-3♦

---4♥

 

This is a wider range than the first two.

 

If I am going to raise hearts I only have two value raises. Therefore both a 3♥ and a 4♥ raise show wider ranges.

 

3♥ would show around 11-15/6

4♥ around 17+

 

4. 1♣-pass-1♥-4♦

---4♥

 

Even a wider range than 3.

[the hog]

1♣-pass-1♥-pass

4♥

 

17+-19, 4 card support, C not solid, 5422

 

1♣-pass-1♥-pass

4♣

17-18, 4 card support, C solid 5422

 

 

1♣-pass-1♥-3♦

4♥

17+-19, 4 card support, C not solid, 5422

 

 

4. 1♣-pass-1♥-4♦

4♥

Different auction entirely as opener is under the hammer. I would say 16-19 with 4 card support

[Free]

About all bids are similar except the last one. This can be done with several hands which have some distribution, or HCP.

[Cascade]

1♣-pass-1♥-pass

4♥

 

17+-19, 4 card support, C not solid, 5422

This question applies to some of your other auctions as well...

 

Do you do something different with 4432 hands and 18-19 hcp?

[paulhar]

1♣-pass-1♥-pass

4♥

 

17+-19, 4 card support, C not solid, 5422

Why 5-4-2-2? Couldn't you have a 3-4-2-4 19-count that intended to rebid 2NT until your partner bid your four card heart suit?

[hallway]

Paulhar,

 

Correct me if I am wrong !!!

 

Is this not the Beginner Intermediate Bridge Discussion Forum ;)

 

Did Rado not ask a Question ;)

 

Is is not reasonable to suppose that the question was meant for US - beginners and intermediates to answer :D

 

Look what has happened - Expert / Expert / Expert have you not all got ENOUGH forums ????????? General, sayc, interesting hands, Advanced expert +++++ that you can interact with one another in.

 

Rado asked US a question - is it likely that ANY of US are going to suggest an answer now - not likely !!! :D

 

Shouldn't WE have been given the opportunity to answer and then for RADO who posed the question for US in the first place to comment on what we have said ????

 

And people wonder why the BIL is necessary :D

 

Thank You RADO for TRYING . Please send me a Quiz or two or three and I will put them in my Newsletter and if you like to come up with some really easy ones I will post them in my beginners website - ONLY beginners can put in any answers and the next week I will post your sage advice :)

[the hog]

"Do you do something different with 4432 hands and 18-19 hcp? "

Yes Wayne, bid 3D artifical and forcing with my pds.

 

Maureen, most of us don't even look what forum a post is in - I certainly don't.

[Cascade]

Sorry Maureen.

 

It was not clear to me (and I presume to others) that Rado intended his question only to be answered by Beginners and Intermediates. Or that in general replies were only welcomed by Beginners and Intermediates. I thought that replies that would be helpful to Beginners and Intermediates would be welcomed.

 

However having if I had given some thought to why Rado was posting a question in the Beginner/Intermediate forum I might have decided that the question was aimed at Beginner/Intermediate players. It did occur to me at the time that it was a slightly odd question for Rado to be asking but I did not give that a lot of thought.

 

Personally when I am looking through the forums I seldom navigate to the individual posts through the particular forum. Instead I go directly to the post from the "new posts" list. This means that I often do not know notice which forum I am reading.

[paulhar]

I have deleted material not appropriate for this (or any other) forum.

 

This is what's left: :D

[scoob]

wayne/hog - the forum is clearly outlined directly to the right of the actual post in the "new posts" list.

 

paulhar - maureen didn't single you out; scroll halfway down her post and you'll find "Look what has happened - Expert / Expert / Expert" (this should also cover your insecurites about your perceived level here)

 

maureen - perhaps your post would have been received in a lighter mood if you send it privately.

 

now, everyone kiss & make up. I'll man the camera.

[Chamaco]

Hi all friends

Suppose using natural methods ( 5 card Majors), what about these often seen bids:

1. 1♣-pass-1♥-pass

---4♥

2. 1♣-pass-1♥-2♦

---4♥

3. 1♣-pass-1♥-3♦

---4♥

4. 1♣-pass-1♥-4♦

---4♥

:-)))))))))))))))))

Rado

1. Opener should be balanced, with strength to play game opposite aboiut a min of 5/6 hcp (therefore somewhere in the 18/20 hcp range).

If he had a singleton/void he wd splinter (3S/4C/4D) showing 4 cd support and a singleton/void in the suit bid.

 

2. Pretty much similar to auction 1. 4C/D would still be splinters (in standard methods- UNLESS using fitshowing jump). Opener is balanced with 4 cd support and GF values

 

3. This is nastier. We do not have guarantee opener is balanced. Bidding 3S and 4C here would not be showing a sut, so there is not a way to show a singleton there (4D is probably still shortnes showing). Also, weaker hands with shortness (say a good 16/17+ hcp with shortness- especially in enemy suit) would bid game as there is little space to invite.

 

4. The most ambiguous bid: here opener will stretch on most minimum reverse hands with 4 cd support, no matter if balanced or not.

 

---------------------------

 

A final word on dealing with these balanced hands: it should be made clear (to beginners/int.) that the range promised by opener in the most "scientific" sequences (1 and 2) is strictly dependent on some details of your system, namely:

 

1- the range of your 1NT opening: some people play 15-17, others 16-18, others 14-16, and others the weak no trump (usualy 12-14 or 13-15 or even weaker ranges). Opener's rebid promises a balanced hand STRONGER than a 1NT opener.

 

2- the minimum strength promised by a response. If you respond very light to 1 club opening. e.g. some player use a "short club" approach, opening 1C all balanced minimum hands (12-14 usually), and they require responder to never pass a 1C opening bid, even with zero; in this case, the 4H rebid must be substantially stronger.

[Free]

Paulhar,

 

Correct me if I am wrong !!!

 

Is this not the Beginner Intermediate Bridge Discussion Forum ;)

 

Did Rado not ask a Question ;)

 

Is is not reasonable to suppose that the question was meant for US - beginners and intermediates to answer :P

 

Look what has happened - Expert / Expert / Expert have you not all got ENOUGH forums ????????? General, sayc, interesting hands, Advanced expert +++++ that you can interact with one another in.

 

Rado asked US a question - is it likely that ANY of US are going to suggest an answer now - not likely !!! :angry:

 

Shouldn't WE have been given the opportunity to answer and then for RADO who posed the question for US in the first place to comment on what we have said ????

 

And people wonder why the BIL is necessary :P

 

Thank You RADO for TRYING . Please send me a Quiz or two or three and I will put them in my Newsletter and if you like to come up with some really easy ones I will post them in my beginners website - ONLY beginners can put in any answers and the next week I will post your sage advice :)

I have only 3 letters on this: OMG!!!

[inquiry]

Hi...

 

I choose not to answer Rado's question when it was posted (I read it before anyone had replied), because to me, it was obvious that:

 

1) Rado knows the answers. In otherwords he was not looking for me (or anyone else) to tell him what the correct course on thiese auction would be. IF you don't know him, Rado is an "old-timer" on BBO being one of the first memebers, and is a most excellent Gold Star with a very sound theoretical understanding of the game.

 

2) Rado was aiming this post at beginners, hence he put it in the Beginner/Intermediate Forum

 

3) I suspect Rado plans to tell us "the why's" of the differences in these auctions, and the significance of the use/lack of use of cue-bids when they are available.

 

Now to some of the issues raised by my personal hero, Marureen, and new active and excellent poster Paulher. There is little doubt that few beginners/intermediates were gong to post in reply to rado's question anyway. The fact is, they are inhibited here (so many are members, and I see their names logged in, and see that they are reading post, they just don't reply). This would be true rather or not the "experts" replied. So I am not so sure taking the expert/expert/expert to task is quite fair. On the otherhand I know the frustration. I use to post beginner hands in this forum (go back and you can find them). These were hands no advanaced player or expert would have trouble with. In fact, even intermediaes could solve tehm easily... they were BEGINNER PROBLEMS after all. Yet within minutes, experts would solve the hand and say "what's the problem?" Well, they were the problem there. By making fun of the problems, no beginner would dare try to answer one in writing ... what if they got it wrong??? Second, by answering so quickly (and yes, correctly), beginners saw the answer before they thought about it. So, in effect, I stopped posting these problems. I think Maureen is remembering back to that kind of thing.

 

On the otherhand. Since few beginner/intermediates are gong to post anyway, the expert replies (even when they differ), allow an opportunity for all to see how others bid and hopefully can explore the why the differing opinions exist. Thus, having the experts reply here, in this forum, is not a bad thing in this case. As long as they limit their content to what is approapriate for beginners. There are things that could have been discussed but wasn;t or only touched on briefly.. .What would 2NT mean (with and without the 2D bid), should 3D always promise heart support, what would a jump to 4C mean. Interesting stuff here, yes even for beginners.

 

It would be helpful that we keep the content of this forum focused on the level of players it is meant for.. beginners and intermediates. Now, there is a big differnece between intemediate and beginner. An intermediate wants to know all about conventions and funny agreements to "get better", beginners just want the simple get me started basics. That causes a lot of diversity in what readers of this forum want... including, as paulher took a shot at a few weeks ago, things like scrambling 2NT.

 

As scoob said, everyone make up... after all, everyone posting here is TRYING to help.. and everything written in this thread will be of beneifit to someone. I for one await Rado's answers, I am sure they will be wonderfully worded and very useful to beginners...but his point is already made.. every beginner reading this thread has already begun to see how these auctions are similar and how they are not similar.

 

ben

[Rado]

Hi all friends,

I was surprised to see how different reactions received on simple bridge questions. The goal of my post was to see different opinions/schools on some basic bidding situations. Everybody is welcomed to reply (BBO forums are FREEEEEE) and I posted in Beg/Int trend just because I was sure all BIL friends regularly check it and they will learn new ideas when discussing these 4 bidding sequences. So please do not argue who must reply and who must not. BBO and forums are for all of us!!!!!

 

Back to the bids:Have to add that we suppose 5 Majors and 15-17 NT with a small set of gadgets (science)

1. 1♣-pass-1♥-pass

---4♥

Let's see the other available bids for strong raise of partner's 1♥ bid

1.1. 3♠ and 4♦ should be considered as Splinters promising abt 17-19(20) HCP , 4+fit and singleton/void in the suit bid

e.g. ♠x♥AQxx♦Axx♣AQJxx - bid 3♠

-----♠AJxx♥KQxx♦x♣AKJx - bid 4♦

-----♠Ax♥Axxxx♦-♣KQJxxx - bid 4♦ (here may see next topic too)

1.2. 4♣ shoold be considered as concentrated 5♣4♥22 or good 6♣4+♥ without much strength outside (again around 16-19 HCP)

e.g. ♠Qx♥AKJx♦xx♣AKQxx - bid 4♣

-----♠x♥AKxxx♦x♣AQJxxx

-----♠Kx♥KQJx♦x♣AKJxxx

Here the message "SENT" to partner is not to worry about our 2 suits, while when splintering we tend to show values in all 3 suits

1.3. If we have the above bids available, then 4♥ simply remains to cover all other max(18-20 hcp) opening hands with 4fit in ♥ balanced 4333, 4432, non balanced 5422 with scattered values or 5+4 with singleton Honour" (general advice is to avoid splintering with singleton A,K or Q because partner will treat as wasted values his KQxx vs your singleton A for example)

 

and 1 suggestion:

"SCIENCE" 1.4. In part of the standart systems 1m-1M-3NT is to play based on long minor and abt 8-8,1/2 tricks, other have some gadgets to handle such good long suited minor hands and this 3NT bid becomes free. So just an idea :

1♣-pass-1♥-pass

3NT = ballanced or semibalanced hands 18-19 HCP with 4 fit

4♥ = agressive distributional raise to 4 (hoping P to have the minimum right cards and/or distribution - again promising values in ♥/♣ only but weaker than 4♣ bid as mentioned above.

♠xx♥AQJx♦x♣KQJxxx - bid 4♥ (all we need is an Ace + 5 cards in ♥ to have playable game, and opps' silence is suspicious that partner has something:)))) I've seen at live top world players to bid this even with x-Axxx-xx-AKxxxx

 

2. 1♣-pass-1♥-2♦

---4♥

here the overcall does not steal space for our ♥ raises so keeping it simple and smile (KISS) we may proceede as in case 1.

Even that following the general idea in competitive bidding that direct raises to game in Major are not encouraging for further bidding, the cue 3♦ might show: 4fit, balanced and max or stopper asking for 3NT based on long ♣. The threat of further Opps preempt exist, but often it's overestimated, because when stopper ask we do not have fit for Partner, and only "might" have fit in our minor.

Another problem hand may appear 18-19 balanced without fit for Partner's M and no stopper in Opps overcall - here simple DBL helps (even if we use fit showing DBLs.... but that's another story)

 

3. 1♣-pass-1♥-3♦

---4♥

Here things dramatically changed since opps steal our simple 2♥ support bid, and we have to stretch a little the 3 and 4 level support since if we just PASS keeping the non-contested scheme, partner often will be stuck with invitational hand not knowing about our fit.

3.1 - 3♥ - includes all fit hands good 11 to 14 (which normally we should raise to 2♥ only) plus some bad 15 (of course some dead minimum balanced (12-13 HCP and 4♥333) might pass)

3.2 - 4♥ - showing the middle range abt 15 good to 17 bad points with fit (which normally should have bid 3♥)

3.3 - 4♣ showing max hands (17-19) with good ♣ suit

3.4 - 4♦ showing max hands which cannot apply for 4♣ bid - e.g. balanced, semi balanced, non balanced with not good ♣ etc.

Note that here 3♠ is natural and forcing, denying ♥ fit

 

4. 1♣-pass-1♥-4♦

---4♥

Here the opps put max pressure and we have only one support bid available - 4♥ starting from some 15 very good non balanced to 19 dull 4♥333

 

Some might disagree, but I believe the above is a good way to introduce the differences in "straight" and "competitive" bidding using naturally based methods

 

Regards

Rado

[inquiry]

Waiting for Rado's reply was well worth it... Thanks.

 

Rado, in your reply you talked about "SCIENCE"

 

1.4. In part of the standart systems 1m-1M-3NT is to play based on long minor and abt 8-8,1/2 tricks, other have some gadgets to handle such good long suited minor hands and this 3NT bid becomes free. So just an idea :

1♣-pass-1♥-pass

3NT = ballanced or semibalanced hands 18-19 HCP with 4 fit

4♥ = agressive distributional raise to 4

 

I shall share with you what misho and I play, but I will start it in the Advanced/Expert discussison group for two reasons. Our choices are not even close to mainstream, and they do not fit in your requirement for this thread on "bidding using naturally based methods"... I think you might like it....

 

Ben

[paulhar]

Ouch! I was missing one critical piece of information that everybody else probably had - being new to this forum, I did not know that Rado wasn't a beginner. What I thought I was doing was giving information to an intermediate player asking the difference between the auctions, with some disclaimers that beginners should ignore some of this. When it appeared that I was being personally attacked for doing something reasonable, I wanted to report the post. I'm glad I didn't, for if I had been the one to pose the problem, I might have reacted quite the same way as Maureen did if nobody but experts replied. Funny thing is, more people probably know Rado than me on this forum, and its quite possible a lot of experts might have made the same mistake, thinking I was a beginner. (Hopefully my partners won't comment on that :D )

 

If Fred Gitelman had posed the same problems, I would have known that they were aimed at the beginners and clearly I would have stayed away. In essence, what I did was unwittingly step into someone else's class and 'answered' a question aimed for the students. It's clear that this is a pretty obnoxious thing to do if I knew that I was doing that and I can understand Maureen's unhapiness. In defense of my fellow experts (!), an oxymoron since I'm hardly an expert, they saw somethiing in my post that they thought needed correcting; if they thought I was giving bad information to the beginners, it's quite reasonable for them to correct me. And, just as clearly, this appeared to Maureen to be more obnoxious people stealing the teacher's thunder.

 

Now that I know that Rado was playing the role of a teacher, I'll chime in too... thanks for trying. Gosh, if anybody else tries to do the same thing, I'm sure I'll do the same thing again if it's not obvious to me that they aren't a beginner. Somehow that needs to be clear. (Maybe since I don't know all the true experts, I should just keep my mouth shut :D ) Rado - please try again. I promise I'll stay away from your threads. And the experts that are won't feel the need to correct the expert that isn't. But this whole unpleasant incident would have been avoided if Rado had identified himself as a teacher or top player, or had requested that only beginners answer.

 

The heck of it is, we're all on the same side. None of the advanced players post in the B/I forum unless they're trying to help the B/I's.

 

Talking to intermediates on BBO is a more difficult task than in real life. At the local clubs, intermediates have never heard of splinters and all questions can be answered assuming the use of no conventions. Here on BBO, when I offered a short intermediate lesson, an awful lot of profiles were marked 'Intermediate' but there were lots of gadgets on most of their profiles. Issues came up which I was quite unprepared for - people asking about conventions that 2/3 of the intermediates play and the others would be totally confused by the answer. I tried to answer them privately in most cases because I like to cater to simplicity but it did slow things down in the lesson. I haven't quite pegged the level of a BBO intermediate yet. My own personal opinion is that most of the things posted on this forum are too complicated but I am thinking more about what the true beginner will think when he reads these threads and others are probably thinking more about the intermediates that use lots of gadgets.

[paulhar]

There is little doubt that few beginners/intermediates were gong to post in reply to rado's question anyway. The fact is, they are inhibited here (so many are members, and I see their names logged in, and see that they are reading post, they just don't reply). This would be true rather or not the "experts" replied.

A few weeks ago I got on my bandwagon and tried to rally the B/I to speak more in this forum. Apparently to no avail.

 

Would it work better if the beginners could E-mail their answers to the quizzes to the quizmaker and the userID's of the correct answerers be posted in the thread? That way nobody is afraid to answer, and some beginners get recognition.

 

Here's another idea that might actually get the beginners (and I really mean beginners!) taliking on this forum - and once they start talking, maybe others will join in and the forum will become theirs again (despite the fact that I think it is good that a beginner/intermediate can ask a question and within a couple of hours get answers from several decent players.) Have occasional quizzes posted. Correct answers earn points based on when they were posted (first correct answer gets 5 points, then 4, then 3... or something to that effect) The first beginner (I assume that BBO can verify that the person was never self-ranked higher) to reach some number of points wins a playing lesson with some decent player, or maybe gets to play in a BBO tournament with some player worth winning, or some such incentive. The idea is that the beginners will start posting and talking to each other, and maybe it will propogate more of the same! (Same could be done for intermediates too, I guess.)

[the hog]

First prize one game with Inquiry

Second Prize two games with Inquiry?

 

Just kidding, Ben!

[jtfanclub]

As you all know, I'm an intermediate player who isn't shy in making his opinion known.

 

I can't imagine why I would want to answer this question on-line. How could my opinion on this help anyone else on this forum? If it's a quiz, then I'll think or write down my answers and then look at the correct answer later- this isn't school, and I don't need a grade. If it's an honest question, then I can't answer it- my hand evaluation techniques are average at best, as it is for most beginners and intermediates.

 

It has nothing to do with being shy, or being worried about being laughed at (Lord knows that must happen enough), it's simply that there isn't anything I or most other beginners/intermediates could contribute to the discussion.

 

As for what it means to me, the answer is it means 'I want to play in 4H'.

 

Someday I'll get fancier than that. :)

[paulhar]

Great post jtfanclub! What you are saying is quite obvious but a point apparently missed by all of us.

 

I'd like to follow up with some more questions for you and any other brave B/I's (beginner/intermediates) willing to answer.

 

1. When the original quiz was posted, and you came up with your own answers at home, did you like or dislike the fact that there were other 'expert' answers waiting for you when you finished the problems? (and why?) (By the way - I don't know the answer to this - that's why I'm asking.)

 

2. Is it a pipe dream to expect any but the bravest B/I's to post on this board under any circumstances? While you're certainly correct that B/I's won't want to post answers, I presume that there are other topics they would want to discuss.

 

3. My opinion: Although there's no reason to post, there's good reason to E-mail the teacher your answers (with thinking would be good too!) Reason: The teacher needs to know what issues & misconceptions to address when posting the answer. Frequently, misconceptions are uncovered that the teacher didn't think about when posting the question. Your comments?

[whereagles]

Just a small comment (didn't have time to go through the whole thread). Playing a natural system, you can assign undisturbed support bids like this:

 

1D 1H

2H = 12-14 balanced or unbalanced 5+ diams

 

1D 1H

3H = 15-17 unbalanced 5+ diams (balanced would have opened 1NT)

 

1D 1H

4H = 18-19 balanced (unbalanced has other bids)

 

1D 1H

3S/4C = 18-19 unbalanced, splinter

 

1D 1H

4D = 18-19 unbalanced, good 6 diams suit for discards

 

Most of the time responder just bids 4H, but sometimes he might be strong and is now well positioned to go on. This scheme is very descriptive, but does have the problem of occasionally overbidding you to 4H in the case 1D-1H-4H (you can have 18 opposite 5 and no super-fit).

 

If opps overcall, that's a different story.

[paulhar]

1D 1H

3H = 15-17 unbalanced 5+ diams (balanced would have opened 1NT)

What would I do with 4-4-4-1?