"Roman Jumps"

[Elianna]

You're playing with a good partner, and you agree on playing "Roman Jumps" over weak twos, and seem to have the same interpretation that 4C and 4D are forcing (or so you think you remember a year later).

 

1) What do you think (2H) - 4H means? (and whatever you think it means, do you think it is alertable in ACBL?)

 

2) Is your guess on what it means different if you do not have the agreement that 4C and 4D are forcing?

 

3) What is your PREFERENCE for the meaning of the bid (perhaps depending on the forcing nature of 4C/4D)?

[akhare]

1) ♠ and a minor -- your partner forgot the agreement or was hedging if you had forgotten :ph34r:

 

2) Same as above

 

3) Same as above if we don't have 4C / 4D. If we do have the agreement, I don't know what makes sense -- probably a three suited hand with 5♠?

[blackshoe]

First I think we should get straight what "Roman Jump Overcall" means. It is a jump overcall in a new suit, and it shows the suit bid and the next higher ranking suit (bypassing the suit overcalled). Many people play that a jump to 4C or 4D over a major weak two opening shows the minor suit and the other major. This is not a RJO, in spite of the fact that many people (including Larry Cohen, on his web site, I see) call it that. This convention (this minor and the other major) is actually called Schleifer, after Meyer Schleifer. In either case, the jump cue bid is not actually part of the convention. Anderson and Zenkel (Preempts from A to Z) recommend Schleifer, although they don't name it, and recommend that the jump cue show a strong two-suiter in the minors. I'm not sure what Hardy, who does recommend RJOs, says about the jump cue, 'cause I can't find the book (Competitive Bidding with Two Suited Hands) right now. IAC, these jumps show good hands, but I'm not sure they should be forcing.

 

Having said all that:

 

1. Probably two suited with the minors. I would alert it under the "highly unusual or unexpected" clause, at least playing locally, but I wouldn't be surprised if some argued (including TDs) that it isn't alertable.

 

2. No.

 

3. Playing Schliefer, both minors. Playing RJOs (as defined herein) I don't know. Can't be both minors, as 4C takes care of that one.

[Elianna]

Nevermind, I got it right the first time and can't read this late at night.

[jdonn]

I have never heard "Schliefer", as far as I know it's called leaping michaels (even though it's not a cuebid like michaels). I have heard of the jump cuebid as big hand with both minors but I think it would be more useful to just have it be a very big spade hand that is better than 4♠ immediately.

[blackshoe]

I forgot about the "Leaping Michaels" name. I suspect the idea was invented by Schleifer, and probably predates Michaels (ca. 1966, iirc). But with Michaels so popular, renaming it "leaping Michaels" doesn't surprise me. Meyer Schleifer is in the ACBL Hall of Fame.

 

BTW, it was in Hardy's book mentioned upthread that I learned to call it "Schleifer".

[Elianna]

I usually call it "Leaping Michaels", I was just quoting an opponent and my partner.

[peachy]

I call it Leaping Michaels over a weak two in major, not a Roman Jump. Maybe that is some regional custom.

 

I suppose (2H) 4H would be singleton or void H + GF, with a hand that does not want to defend no matter what partner has. Surprisingly, I haven't discussed what it means, but that is how I would guess it at the table. In my usual methods, 3H is asking for stopper for NT, and 4NT would show minors.

[ONEferBRID]

I call it Leaping Michaels over a weak two in major, not a Roman Jump.  Maybe that is some regional custom.

 

I suppose (2H) 4H would be singleton or void H + GF, with a hand that does not want to defend no matter what partner has.  Surprisingly, I haven't discussed what it means, but that is how I would guess it at the table.  In my usual methods, 3H is asking for stopper for NT, and 4NT would show minors.

In 2003 a fellow ( Bridge Lunatic ) from Europe ( Romania I believe) posted the following problem:

(2S) - 4S!

 

where the 4S bidder held:

 

void

K Q J 8 x x

A K Q x

K Q J

 

His partner figured it out and bid 6H on:

T x x

A T 9 x x

J 9 x

T x

[helene_t]

If 4♣ is minors, forcing, and 4♦ is pointed suits, forcing, then 4♥ is black suits.

 

If 4♣ is minors, nonforcing, and 4♦ is pointed suits, nonforcing, then 4♥ is Michaels, and a GF hand with minors would have to bid 4NT.

 

I prefer Leaping Michaels or w/e it's called. Then 4♥ is most commonly played as both minors, stronger than 4NT. A strong minor 1-suiter bids 3♥. Probably, as Josh says, a strong spade single-suiter is a better use for 4♥. I Otherwise, such a hand would have to dbl first.

[Phil]

Pretty sure the standard is the jump cue is the minors and 4N is blackwood. If 4m is forcing, why would you need 4♥ as a big hand with ♠+m? Its less descriptive.

 

The only real question to me is what the direct cue is. You can play it as a stopper ask or a weaker hand than 4m, assuming 4m is forcing.

[Fluffy]

4♥ is a heavy 7-4+ with spades and a minor the same as 1♥-4♥. I think its alertable.

[blackshoe]

I re-read the pertinent section of Preempts from A to Z last night. Buried at the end of the last paragraph on the subject is the statement "of course the 4m bids are practically forcing". Oddly, there was no mention of that fact earlier in the section, including the table where the possible overcalls of 2M are summarized (which is at the front of the section).

 

It's unclear whether they mean by 'practically' 'for practical purposes' or 'almost', although I suspect probably the former.

[rbforster]

(2♥)-4♥. I think its alertable.

I doubt it. From the ACBL:

 

4) CUEBIDS

 

Most cuebids are not Alertable. However, any cuebid which conveys a very unusual or unexpected meaning still requires an Alert.

 

EXAMPLE: 1D-2D

If the 2 bid shows the majors (Michaels), clubs and spades (top/bottom) or some other two-suiter (not including diamonds, no Alert is required.