Stop cards are tools of the devil

[jeremy69]

Ever since we have had bidding boxes and, for that matter, screens in top events we have had players who simply can't be bothered. They won't use a stop card, they won't pause for them, they won't follow the alerting procedure either behind screens or at a table without them, won't write down explanations if behind screens. You can deal with this by

 

a. fining everyone in sight which will get you a 3 table Howell at most events

b. scrapping the processes and increasing the amount of UI

c. Making the processes compulsory where they are not and have the directing staff make more of an effort to enforce them. You will probably need an education programme as well and it will still be an uphill battle. It is much harder to enforce any rule that does not have a degree of acceptance.

[blackshoe]

If you look at all the bidding boxes for sale at Baron-Barclay, you'll see that they all come, new, with bidding cards. Some of them have the short alert and stop cards. Joanne said "replacement bidding boxes". I suspect that either someone included the wrong card set with the boxes she was talking about, or that she was actually talking about replacement bidding cards, and somebody ordered the wrong set, or filled the order with the wrong set, for the boxes the club already had.

 

I'm not surprised Mike Flader said that. As I said, I know that's the common position — but the words of the regulation don't actually say that. Not the only place in law or regulation where the real world interpretation and the written words are actually contradictory. :( :blink:

[JoAnneM]

I just checked to make sure I didn't order the wrong replacement cards.

 

Go to

http://shop6.mailordercentral.com/baronbar...s/products/265/

and look at items #6504 and 6506. They stop cards are short. These replacement cards are for the standard bidding box that you showed and that we own. I noticed that if you want to buy the taller stop cards you have to buy them separately.

 

Very sorry but I don't how to do the underlined url thing. But I am willing to learn.

[helene_t]

Funny, in JoAnne's link, if you order the stop card seperately, or if you order left-handed or symmetrical bidding cards, you get normal size stop and alert cards.

 

To make a link with a custom text visible and the url invisible, use the "htpp://" button.

[blackshoe]

Let me guess - JoAnne's players are putting their pass cards back in the box in front of the stop and alert cards, and that's what's making them hard to find. I think that falls in the category of "operator error". :blink:

[JoAnneM]

Where else would you put your green pass cards but in the front. Don't you believe in LIFO? (Last in, First out) Just imagine all the accidental doubles if they were in front! That would truly be operator error. :lol:

[bluejak]

Where else would you put them?

 

No, I reckon it is a design fault.

 

[Posted without seeing Jo-Anne's last post :lol: ]

[barmar]

Although the ACBL regulation says that use of the STOP card is required, it weakens this requirement by requiring that that the next player pause for the same length of time regardless. It's not nearly as useful a regulation as other organizations, who say that the next player is required to wait until the card is withdrawn.

[peachy]

Although the ACBL regulation says that use of the STOP card is required, it weakens this requirement by requiring that that the next player pause for the same length of time regardless. It's not nearly as useful a regulation as other organizations, who say that the next player is required to wait until the card is withdrawn.

And if the stop card under non-ACBL regulation is withdrawn after five seconds instead of ten? None of the different Stop Card regulations work if players don't understand the reasons why such regulations exist. Or if they for various reasons choose not to follow them.

 

I have a preference for ACBL style regulation = keep it as the next-in-turn bidder's responsibility to take the mandatory pause. Simple, whether stop card was used or not.

 

I particularly dislike the skip bidder to take the stop card out, hold it in his left hand with outstretched arm right in my face, suspended in air or temporarily planted in front of me. I've seen this only at NABC's.

[Mbodell]

There are lots of reasons to dislike the stop regulations and practices, at least as happens in the ACBL. The following are all things that happen not infrequently with the use of the stop cards:

 

1. The stop cards are used to "wake up partner". You hear things like "what do you mean, you didn't see that I jumped, why do you think I used the stop card". This is even without considering the stop card preempts are weak but non-stop card preempts are sound cheating.

 

2. People place the stop card down and immediately remove it, thus doing nothing to help the next player keep their tempo. Here you have neither lost nor gained anything.

 

3. People place the stop card down and leave it down until after the next person bids. Here you will sometimes end up with people feeling bad as if you wait for the person to remove the stop card you might be accused of a BIT for being too slow, but if you bid over a "normal" person thinking it is one of this type then they may be miffed that you are bidding before they remove the stop card.

 

4. People grab the wrong card. I've often seen someone put out a pass card or a double card thinking it was a stop card. Usually they'll make their "skipped" bid and it will be clear it was a mistake, but sometimes the auction has moved on and the next person has made a call. This wouldn't happen with no stop card.

 

5. People play the stop card and don't make a jump. Sometimes they'll even say something like "oh, I didn't see you had bid" when you point out that it wasn't a skip. This kind of UI and confusion wouldn't happen with no stop card.

 

6. People are inconsistent with their use of the stop card. Often they try to use it, but sometimes it isn't in the bidding box or sometimes they just forget in "obviously" uncontested auctions like blackwood-response-[skip] slam where tempo on a X (or even a surprise sac) might well be a consideration.

 

Overall I think more problems are caused by the stop card then are solved by its use.

 

I'd be more in favor of its use if it incorporated a clock some time such that the procedure was place the stop card, make your bid, tap the stop card to start the countdown timer which then visibly counts down 10 seconds. At least then you'd have the gain of consistent tempo counting to offset the losses described above. Today in the ACBL you get all of the downside with little to none gain.

[mjj29]

I particularly dislike the skip bidder to take the stop card out, hold it in his left hand with outstretched arm right in my face, suspended in air or temporarily planted in front of me. I've seen this only at NABC's.

I've recently wondered about whether I should be holding the stop card in front of LHO rather than me - given the number of LHOs who have bid while I'm holding the stop card out

[MarkDean]

I play in the ACBL. I do my best to always use it when I jump. I always put it out, place my bid down, then immediately put the stop card back. Is this how I am supposed to use it?

[blackshoe]

2. People place the stop card down and immediately remove it, thus doing nothing to help the next player keep their tempo. Here you have neither lost nor gained anything.

This is in fact what the regulation says you should do, and is at least in keeping with the principle (in the ACBL) that is the next player's responsibility to control his own tempo.

[blackshoe]

I play in the ACBL. I do my best to always use it when I jump. I always put it out, place my bid down, then immediately put the stop card back. Is this how I am supposed to use it?

Yes.

 

I used to use it religiously. Then I got tired of the fact that 99% of my opponents completely ignored it, so i stopped using it. I think that's technically incorrect, but it doesn't seem to have caused any problems.

[Vampyr]

2.  People place the stop card down and immediately remove it, thus doing nothing to help the next player keep their tempo.  Here you have neither lost nor gained anything.

This is in fact what the regulation says you should do, and is at least in keeping with the principle (in the ACBL) that is the next player's responsibility to control his own tempo.

It seems that using a stop card in this manner is pointless. I can see why ACBL players don't like the stop card.

 

I feel, on the other hand, that the stop card should be used in competitive auctions as well as after skip bids. This is the practice in some places in Europe.

[Vampyr]

I have a preference for ACBL style regulation = keep it as the next-in-turn bidder's responsibility to take the mandatory pause.  Simple, whether stop card was used or not.

The reason for using the stop card is so that the next player can think, if he needs to, instead of having to also estimate the length of his pause.

[peachy]

I have a preference for ACBL style regulation = keep it as the next-in-turn bidder's responsibility to take the mandatory pause.  Simple, whether stop card was used or not.

The reason for using the stop card is so that the next player can think, if he needs to, instead of having to also estimate the length of his pause.

Estimating ten seconds is not hard work or difficult to do even if one has to choose a call to make. Anyway, I still find the whole stop card annoying; even where its use is mandated, the next person must still take about ten seconds when the stop card is withdrawn too fast, right? So using the card is not adding value or benefit to the game while the pause itself does add a benefit.

[Pict]

I have played against internationals who are very annoyed by people who do not follow the stop procedure.

 

I agree with them and Bluejak and various others.

 

Correct procedure creates an expected rhythm for the game, and it is not up to individual players to disrupt that rhythm for their opponents and partner at their own whim.

[pran]

Estimating ten seconds is not hard work or difficult to do even if one has to choose a call to make. Anyway, I still find the whole stop card annoying; even where its use is mandated, the next person must still take about ten seconds when the stop card is withdrawn too fast, right? So using the card is not adding value or benefit to the game while the pause itself does add a benefit.

Having the skip bidder controlling the duration of the pause relieves his LHO from this burden and lets LHO concentrate on his call with no distracting responsibilities.

 

LHO is then free to call as soon as the STOP card is withdrawn even when done before the ten seconds have elapsed, but still cannot be "penalized" for waiting the full ten seconds he is entitled to.

 

If the STOP card is maintained too long LHO may not call until it is withdrawn.

 

Simple as that.

[Vampyr]

Estimating ten seconds is not hard work or difficult to do even if one has to choose a call to make. Anyway, I still find the whole stop card annoying; even where its use is mandated, the next person must still take about ten seconds when the stop card is withdrawn too fast, right? So using the card is not adding value or benefit to the game while the pause itself does add a benefit.

Having the skip bidder controlling the duration of the pause relieves his LHO from this burden and lets LHO concentrate on his call with no distracting responsibilities.

 

LHO is then free to call as soon as the STOP card is withdrawn even when done before the ten seconds have elapsed, but still cannot be "penalized" for waiting the full ten seconds he is entitled to.

 

If the STOP card is maintained too long LHO may not call until it is withdrawn.

 

Simple as that.

Please do not misattribute quotes.

[peachy]

Estimating ten seconds is not hard work or difficult to do even if one has to choose a call to make. Anyway, I still find the whole stop card annoying; even where its use is mandated, the next person must still take about ten seconds when the stop card is withdrawn too fast, right? So using the card is not adding value or benefit to the game while the pause itself does add a benefit.

Having the skip bidder controlling the duration of the pause relieves his LHO from this burden and lets LHO concentrate on his call with no distracting responsibilities.

 

LHO is then free to call as soon as the STOP card is withdrawn even when done before the ten seconds have elapsed, but still cannot be "penalized" for waiting the full ten seconds he is entitled to.

 

If the STOP card is maintained too long LHO may not call until it is withdrawn.

 

Simple as that.

Nobody, certainly not I, have said it isn't simple enough to follow the regulation, be it Norwegian, EBU, or ACBL, whatever.

 

I just prefer the simplest regulation = let the next-in-turn be solely responsible for taking the mandated pause. No fussing with the stop cards, and no opponent assigned to be the "tempo police".

[barmar]

Before bidding boxes, it was common for players to say, "Skip bid, please wait" before making a jump bid. The skip bidder didn't control the next player's tempo (he never has to say, "OK, stop waiting"), this was just a simple reminder.

 

I see the ACBL's Stop card procedure as a simple translation of that old mechanism to the use of bidding boxes. Showing the Stop card is precisely analogous to making that statement. Although they could have used it to improve the process, as many other RAs have, they chose to leave it as it was.

[pran]

Please do not misattribute quotes.

Sorry.

Something strange must have happened when I tried to strip off what I didn't want to comment on.

[bluejak]

I have a preference for ACBL style regulation = keep it as the next-in-turn bidder's responsibility to take the mandatory pause.  Simple, whether stop card was used or not.

The reason for using the stop card is so that the next player can think, if he needs to, instead of having to also estimate the length of his pause.

The most important reason for correctly using the Stop card in the English way is the control of time is not in the hands of the next player. Now, people have said it is reasonable for the next player to control the tempo but it leads to uncontrollable UI.

 

If there is no Stop card, and the next player thinks for six seconds and passes, does that pass UI to his partner? Maybe: you do not know, only his partner knows whether this is faster or slower than normal, or just normal.

 

But if the opponent puts the card out for six seconds and then puts it away, and the next player calls, there is no obvious UI because he does not control the tempo.

 

:lol:

 

I just prefer the simplest regulation =  let the next-in-turn be solely responsible for taking the mandated pause.  No fussing with the stop cards, and no opponent assigned to be the "tempo police".

True, just lots of UI passed which opponents cannot know about, and thus a more unfair game.

[Free]

Mbodell made a list of problems with the stop card, but may I add a 7th one?

 

7. You place the stop card on the table and LHO bids before you've had a chance to place your call on the table.

 

Anyway, here's my opinion:

The purpose of the stop card is good, but not everyone uses it every time. The problem with it is that the stop procedure is there to protect your opponents, not yourself! Imo not using the stop card should mean there are consequences like "opponents can not give UI to each other if the stop card is not used".

 

It's not always useful (example your opps are Red and the auction goes something like 1♣-1♠-1NT-3♠, what's LHO gonna do?), but I wouldn't let average club players decide if it's useful or not.

 

Just make sure it has to be used every time. If you don't, the consequence is that opps can't be charged with illegal use of UI.