Assign the blame

[mohitz]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skqxxxhqdxxcat9xx&s=sajxxhkxdakxckqxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

2♠ - 4♠

 

First time partner. 2NT would have been Ogust ask. New suit forcing one round.

[the hog]

Hard to say - depends on your weak 2 style - opposite standard weak 2s -

 

North 90% for opening 2S when she has a clear 1S opening. South 10% for not bidding Ogust if she knows that North can have such a hand. If Nth has but 6S ti the K together with the C ace. you can count 11 tricks and have chances for a 12th.By the way, what Ogust responses do you play?

[CSGibson]

Unless I find that 2♠ was a two-suiter, I blame N. They were 1st seat with a 2-suiter that could easily have opened 1 spade, and chose to preempt instead, an action that won't be taken at other tables. I could have worked well, but it also deserves the blame for missing a good slam when S has a huge double fit.

[mohitz]

2S agreed as weak two. Ogust responses

 

bad suit bad hand

good suit bad hand

bad suit good hand

good suit good hand

[dicklont]

Both.

North's hand is too good for 2♠.

South's hand is far too good to sign off.

[Fluffy]

north is vul, south can count 11.5 tricks if partner has 2 keycards and very liekelly a 12th in clubs or heart ruff. Just give him ♥Axx and ♠Kxxxxx.

 

playing ogust is not very good, with feature ask its much easier 2NT-3♣-6NT (to protect ♥K).

 

 

North's opening is pretty bad BTW.

[peachy]

North has a 1S opening. After 2S is opened, the train is off the track already.

Ogust answers will not help South, even if he did decide to use it, there could easily be two heart losers off the top even if opener shows good hand and good suit.

[gwnn]

north is vul, south can count 11.5 tricks if partner has 2 keycards and very liekelly a 12th in clubs or heart ruff. Just give him ♥Axx and ♠Kxxxxx.

 

playing ogust is not very good, with feature ask its much easier 2NT-3♣-6NT (to protect ♥K).

 

 

North's opening is pretty bad BTW.

Which 12 tricks can you count?

[Fluffy]

north is vul, south can count 11.5 tricks if partner has 2 keycards and very liekelly a 12th in clubs or heart ruff. Just give him ♥Axx and ♠Kxxxxx.

 

playing ogust is not very good, with feature ask its much easier 2NT-3♣-6NT (to protect ♥K).

 

 

North's opening is pretty bad BTW.

Which 12 tricks can you count?

11.5 tricks at least, with possible inmediate 12th in ♥ lead, ♣J ♦Q ♥Q ♣3-3 or ♣3-2, and maybe a diamond lead if dummy has ♦J10 or ♦J9

[gwnn]

If we agree that partner will usually have KQ of spades, the chances of him having any other honour seem close to 0. Also given our 4 clubs, partner seems unlikely to have 4 clubs, so the only two significant chances are the heart lead the heart finesse or sometimes the 3-3 in clubs.

 

OK fair enough, that's a good slam still :angry:

[Bbradley62]

If we agree that partner will usually have KQ of spades, the chances of him having any other honour seem close to 0. Also given our 4 clubs, partner seems unlikely to have 4 clubs, so the only two significant chances are the heart lead the heart finesse or sometimes the 3-3 in clubs.

 

OK fair enough, that's a good slam still :)

So, what position are you taking? If you think the 2♠ bid gives North virtually 0 chance of holding either round A (a position I'm not agreeing with, btw), then slam doesn't make, even with the underlead of the A♥ and 3-3 clubs.

[gwnn]

I agreed finally that (provided partner promises 6 spades) if you play feature ask and partner shows ♣A, 6NT is a good bid.

[Bbradley62]

I agreed finally that (provided partner promises 6 spades) if you play feature ask and partner shows ♣A, 6NT is a good bid.

OK. Sorry, I lost track of the conversation.

[Bbradley62]

North's bid was terrible, absurd, and completely anti-partnership, especially for a first-time partnership. Despite this, South should have easily imagined possible North hands that make slam, so South gets 90% of the blame.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skqxxxhqdxxcat9xx&s=sajxxhkxdakxckqxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

2♠ - 4♠

 

First time partner. 2NT would have been Ogust ask. New suit forcing one round.

mostly N for preempting S with an inappropriate hand. From South's perspective this looks like a 50% max slam and as a consequence he took the conservative view.

[jillybean]

2♠ killed any chance of a normal auction, why is this posted as a problem?

[aguahombre]

Even a Pass by North to start with works better, leading to 6S by South after 2NT. I might have overlooked the fact that my stiff heart was the Queen and accidentally passed.

 

South is not blameless after the 2S start. So:

 

100 % North (for the opening)

 

50% South (for not exploring)

 

25 % Ogust (for not being useful on this hand)

[Rodney26]

I mostly blame North. New partnerships should preempt in a straightforward manner in seats 1 & 2.

 

New partnerships also should not play Ogust. When we post mortem at the club, I've seen at least two occasions where one pair answered good hand, good suit and another answered bad hand, bad suit on the same holding. Until you establish in a partnership what constitutes a good hand or suit in each seat at each vulnerability, Ogust is completely useless. On this hand, I suspect no matter what North answers to 2NT (except 4H), South isn't going to be able to move confidently holding Kx in hearts. So, 10% to South for not giving North a chance to make this undiscussed bid.

[Winstonm]

2S agreed as weak two. Ogust responses

 

bad suit bad hand

good suit bad hand

bad suit good hand

good suit good hand

In that case I blame your agreement and your methods. Ogust is one of the more horrific bridge ideas to ever come along - at best, it is designed to reach a 3NT contract with it's not-very-specific responses but ignores the fact 2 out of 3 times the opening weak 2-bid will be in a major so reaching the major-suit game is the key quest, not 3NT.

 

I wrote about this in The Bridge World some time ago - the most useful method is an asking bid method with responses that describe modified loser-counts, assuming the opened major as the trump suit.

 

It doesn't take much imagination to understand with these hands the value of 2S-2N-3C as showing a 6-loser hand.

[gwnn]

loser count is for losers

[ONEferBRID]

Agree the hand is too strong for a weak 2, but it could be a poster child for opening 1C with a minimum or subminimum 5-5 in the blacks .

[Winstonm]

loser count is for losers

This method (losing trick count) did not gain very much popularity with the bridge community (published in 1934), but was revived by Mr. Maurice Harrison-Gray and has become an acceptable counting method. It regained popularity when the Italian teams used it successfully in combination with the Roman System.

 

And we all know how badly that Italian experiment turned out....

[gwnn]

yeppp everyone plays Roman nowadays

[MFA]

North is not out of range for slam purposes. It may be an ugly hand for a vul vs not two-bid, but it's not out of range for slam.

 

When south decided not to look for slam, it was his decision all alone, and it worked out poorly. We could argue if he was unlucky or too conservative. But blaming north for having an ugly hand is beside the point, since the 'ugliness' as such was irrelevant for the success of his partner's decision.

[gwnn]

Hm MFA? I think most people were arguing that N was too good, so S's conservativeness was at least partly justified.