Five-card support

[mohitz]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sa9xxxhaq9xxxdqca]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

You deal and open 1♥. Partner surprises you with 1♠. Your call?

[Fluffy]

4♦

[effervesce]

Yah agree with 4♦. The 5 trumps make it slightly too good for 4♠.

[peachy]

There is a potential for not being successful no matter what I bid here.

Splinter with a Q makes partner devalue his hand with something like KQxx-x-KJ10xx-xxx or upgrade hands like KJ10xx-xx-xxx-KQx. 4S denies a singleton (definitely denies two singletons even if a singleton A is held) and promises about 19 balanced; this makes partner pass with many hands that would produce slam like KQxx-Kx-xxx-xxxx.

I still bid 4D and hope for the best.

[CSGibson]

I'll go with a subtle 4N. This is going to be impossible to describe to partner, but I might just be able to solicit information from him, and I'm willing to risk the 5 level.

[pooltuna]

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ A9xxx ♥ AQ9xxx ♦ Q ♣ A

 

You deal and open 1♥. Partner surprises you with 1♠. Your call?

Well what are your choices for calls? 3♠(I would reject this with no additional thought), 4♣(yeah I know it is an A but this might be the hand to break the rule), 4♦, 4♠ (skipping 4♥ which should be to play), & 4NT

 

4♣ - with either the ♦A or ♥K partner may qbid making 4NT a reasonable call

 

4♦ - with crappy club cards partner may see no reason to qbid 5♦ yet this works if partner calls 4♥

 

4♠ the only advantage this has is that it gets to our minimal spot for the hand but puts all the pressure on partner to act.

 

4NT This call will force us to the 5 level which may be too dangerous.

 

My choice would be 4♣

[Codo]

My first reeaction was the "obvious" 4♦. But Tuna made a good point for the "hey no splinter with an ace" 4 ♣. I want partner to deeavluate any clubs. He needs something like KQJxx to make them useful for discarding my heart losers. Quite unlikely. And KQx does not help us. What do I want to discard there? The 4. and 5. heart?

 

So 4 ♣ is it for me too.

[mikeh]

4♦ was my immediate reaction, and then I thought more about 4[C] and then I returned to 4♦.

 

The problem is one of methods over splinters.

 

Thus, I would be happier with 4♣ if I knew that partner's hypothetical 4♦ promised the Ace, but it doesn't for me, and nor does it for most posters, based on many threads discussing cuebids. So 4♣ doesn't do it for me unless his cuebid is 4♥, rather than 4♦. The best way to get a 4♥ cuebid is to splinter in diamonds (imagine he has something like KJxxx Kx Kxx xxx..while we may survive a 4♣ splinter, it will be easier over a 4♦ splinter)

 

It's not as if 4♦ is risk free however: if he cues 4♥ is this really a cue or a last train bid?

 

If it is last train, we are probably ok: we should have 5 level safety opposite a hand that has any real degree of slam interest, and LTTC should deliver that.

 

If it is a cue...which control does it promise? I like a rule (which I learned from several sources) that if the first cue is in partner's primary suit, it is never shortness. That rule would make the cuebid the heart King, which is extremely helpful...altho, admittedly, shortness would probably work ok especially if he has 5 trumps.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

4D, but I wont give up after 4S, after 4S I will bid 5S, as quantitative,

the alternative to 5S - maybe 5C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdanno]

I have a lot of sympathy for the arguments in favor of 4♣ but I think I will bid 4♦ for a different reason that has been mentioned: The ♣K may well prove useful, if they don't lead a diamond. The ♦K will never be useful.

[Phil]

4♦. Good reasons presented by others, so I won't expand although I do believe 4♥ is LTTC.

[andy_h]

Assuming we do play last train, I'm in favour of 4♣. If partner bypasses 4♦ in order to last train over it that's pretty much pot gold. If partner cues 4♦ I submit that it could be either the Ace or King but I will then sign off with 4♠ over that. If partner has the ♦A I am sure he will still kick with Kxxxx xx Axx xxx or Kxxx Kx Kxxx xxx and the five level has some relative safety.

 

If I splinter 4♦ and partner last trains with 4♥, I am completely in the dark as to what club values partner may have and I'm hesitant about partner going to the 5 level with them.

[mikeh]

Assuming we do play last train, I'm in favour of 4♣. If partner bypasses 4♦ in order to last train over it that's pretty much pot gold. If partner cues 4♦ I submit that it could be either the Ace or King but I will then sign off with 4♠ over that. If partner has the ♦A I am sure he will still kick with Kxxxx xx Axx xxx or Kxxx Kx Kxxx xxx and the five level has some relative safety.

 

If I splinter 4♦ and partner last trains with 4♥, I am completely in the dark as to what club values partner may have and I'm hesitant about partner going to the 5 level with them.

The definition of Last Train with which I am familar is that it is available only when there is but one intermediate call available between partner's last bid and game in our suit (I frequently find, in these fora, that my understanding of bids is incorrect or incomplete, but in this case I see that that eminent bridge authority, wikipedia, agrees with me :lol: ).

 

So I don't think LTTC applies over 4♣ but it does over 4♦.

 

There is logic, I think, in this restrictive view....it is unlikely, altho not impossible, that the bidder both has slam interest and is yet unable to cuebid in either of the two 'missing suits'....especially when a cue may be 2nd round control. Thus, in the example hand, we'd need responder to be turned on by a splinter in clubs while holding no 1st or 2nd round red suit control...I'd say that was virtually impossible.

 

.

[andy_h]

Wrong choice of words =) As you explained, I just wanted to point out that over 4♣ if partner bypasses 4♦ to bid 4♥ then the only relevant cards are the major suit cards which is great for us.

[dake50]

Would 5S show only interest in Majors slam try?

[effervesce]

Would 5S show only interest in Majors slam try?

but 5♠ could easily be already too high...

 

Reflecting on comparing 4♣ with 4♦, Im changing my answer to 4♣.

Agree that if partner cuebids 4♥ and skips 4♦ the hand is huuuuggeeee.