leaping michaels poll

[Fluffy]

what would you think its standard here?

 

2♦-pass-2♥-4♣ (2♦ multi)

[gwnn]

clubs and spades, if I have clubs and hearts I'm happy to defend 2H usually :)

[the hog]

What sort of multi? I don't think LM is standard by the way.

[kenberg]

The multi is not played so much on my side of the pond so maybe my vote for clubs plus any should be discounted. Still, I don't see why the 2♥ call should discourage my interest in hearts. To the extent that 2♥ says anything at all about hearts, it shows reluctance, does it not? With three hearts and short spades responder might well have bid 2S on some hands.

 

I'm a bit stunned that, among those regularly encountering the multi, this is not a settled item. When I first started (with all too brief preparation) defending against the multi 2[De] we had the auction (2[De])-4♦-pass-4♥. After the ensuing disaster I convinced partner that my 4♥ bid was definitely not an insistence that we play in "my heart suit" rather than his spades. I don't see why it should be different on the posted auction.

 

To me (once again I have limited experience) the issue, when the leap is to 4♣ is this: With two red suits available, presumably a bid in one of them is real, a bid in the other asks for the the major. I would expect a pairt to play (2♦)-4♣-(pass)-4♥ and

(2♦)-pass-(2♥)- 4♣-(pass)-4♥ the same way.

[gwnn]

the thing is that if 2♥ gets passed out it's OK. If not, then everything is still on and if it goes

 

2♦-p-2♥-p

2♠-p-3♠-4♣

 

should still be non leaping michaels because you didn't bid 3♣ earlier.

 

Of course if RHO bids 4♠ we will be screwed but at least the rest of the time we know something!

[Cascade]

I think having ambiguity about a major at the four level is too big a burden.

[lmilne]

I think having ambiguity about a major at the four level is too big a burden.

Yes - strongly prefer specific major.

 

You simply can't play LM without discussing all the sequences it applies in as well as setting what suits are shown.

 

This auction: by discussion.

[Codo]

What exactly is the problem with clubs and a major here?

Which continuation do you fear?

[mohitz]

I voted clubs and spades because I thought it was standard to play the same defense over (2D) - p - (2H) as over (2H).

 

What exactly is the problem with clubs and a major here?

 

IMO, The problem is that if indeed somehow LHO's suit is your major, you might be better off defending(doubled or undoubled)

[655321]

The rare partnerships where I have discussed this, we play this LM as showing the major RHO didn't bid (i.e. Clubs and Spades here), but I don't know if that is standard.

 

The partnerships where we haven't discussed it, we don't make the bid.

[helene_t]

But if LHO has spades and we bid 4♣ showing clubs and spades, we are not going to defend.

[whereagles]

C+M

[mohitz]

But if LHO has spades and we bid 4♣ showing clubs and spades, we are not going to defend.

True but in that case we don't have an option. We have to act because it's very likely the auction might die in 2H. Here we do!

[Phil]

clubs and spades, if I have clubs and hearts I'm happy to defend 2H usually :)

Gwnn gets it.

 

Just like in the other multi thread when we hold xx, AKJxxxx, Axx, x we are happy to defend 3♥ (so 4♥ there is ♠+ a minor, except for Josh he plays NLM (as do I) so he'd bid 4♣, and a direct 4♥ shows the minors.

[peachy]

The rare partnerships where I have discussed this, we play this LM as showing the major RHO didn't bid (i.e. Clubs and Spades here), but I don't know if that is standard.

 

The partnerships where we haven't discussed it, we don't make the bid.

Then, if opener had the spade suit, we have denied ourselves the chance to double them. I am not sure Leaping Michaels is even on - should not be - in this sequence and if it is, how to play it without depriving our side some opportunities.

[Jlall]

Whatttttttt? If you have clubs and hearts and it goes 2D p 2H p 2S p 4S that is really bad for you.

 

Strongly prefer C+M. I don't think C+ambiguous major is even problematic, it's obv worse with D+M 4D, but even that is not that hard to deal with imo.

[Jlall]

Also I totally don't buy the "if it goes 2D p 2H p p p that is fine" argument. If I have a super strong hand with C+H I'm not really fine defending 2H, we may make 7C, or at least 6 or 5.

[Jlall]

If you have a 19 count with C+H you better to remember to pass in tempo because your LHO is gonna pass 2H with like 6-1 in the majors if you hitch also, knowing you probably have 10 hearts and values.

[Cascade]

Problem hands are hands where you don't have a fit for partner and you have a suit of your own.

 

Admitedly these are low frequency but they are a big problem when they occur.

[ONEferBRID]

From 2002, ACBL .. Option 2 ( considered to be better than Option 1 by the experts ) :

 

http://www.acbl.org/Details.asp?id=1829&PID=10355&RID=9939

 

( 2D! ) - p - ( 2H! ) - 4C! = strong ( 5/5)+ Cl and a major( either one )

( p ) - ??

          4D! = asks for Major

 

And if the Leaping Michaels in 4th was 4D! = ( 5/5)+ Diam and a major,

then 4H is pass-or-correct to 4S.

[Free]

For me this is ♠+♣. With ♥ you can just pass and wait for partner's Dbl. Obviously it can go bad if we hold ♥+♣ and opps bid to 4♠, but that's pretty much the only situation.

 

I think 2♦-Pass-2♥-4♦ more interesting. Here it can go way worse if you don't show your Major immediately. So here I'd definitely play ♦+♠!

[hanp]

I play it shows clubs and a major, just as over 2D directly. I think this is more common here but I could be wrong.

[Fluffy]

I think the poll just shows that having this undiscussed is prone to missunderstanding :)

 

The second part is.. if you play as any major, it seems obvious to me that playing 4♦ asking for the major, and 4M as cuebid for clubs is the optimal agreement, however having the guts to bid 4♥ with singleton is reserved for very experienced partnerships, how would ou take it?

[hanp]

Just always bid 4D in this auction :). If partner bids 4H then 4S is a slam try in clubs and 4NT a slam try in hearts as usual. If partner bids 4S then 4NT is a slam try in clubs and 5D and 5H are slam tries in spades.

 

I think it makes sense to agree that 4M is to play here. If you want to try for slam in clubs then you usually want to hear about the major anyway. An alternative is that 4H is pass/correct, and 4D asks for the major but shows a good hand.

[Fluffy]

If you want to try for slam in clubs then you usually want to hear about the major anyway.

This might sound odd, but the 4♦ bid is so wide ranged normally, that IMO he is the guy who should make the final decisions here.