Action after oppo bid 2D weak

[gwnn]

whereagles: it is not "perfectly correct technically". In Robson Segal all example hands where you double and bid a new suit you have 5 in that suit and 4 in the "other" suit. Last time I called this to your attention you said that that particular 5-4 hand looks like 4-5...

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=31583

 

edit... I can't sleep so I looked it up specifically:

 

They do not have this exact auction but:

 

2♠-x-p-3♦

p-3♥

 

"should show a five card suit"

 

3♦-x-p-3♥

p-4♣

 

"should be a hand like KQTx Ax x AKJxxx" i.e. he doesn't pull to spades

 

1♠-x-p-2♦

p-2♥

 

1534 1525 or 2524

 

When they discuss what hand you need to pull

 

3♦-x-p-3♥ to 3♠, they show two hands that are two weak and both have 5 spades and 4 clubs.

 

I count 8 different sequences where you double and pull your partner's bid to another suit which they consider non-GOSH and in none of the cases do they have an example hand with less than 5 in the suit they pull to (some sequences have more than 1 example)...

 

I think that, while it is nowhere written as an explicit rule, it is safe to say that Robson and Segal do not advocate doubling and pulling hearts to spades with less than 5 spades.

Edited April 15, 2010 by gwnn

[pirate22]

Defence 2 opps weak 2's--one should have an agreed system with Partner.

 

Against any weak 2 major-bid your best minor( it can be a 3 card suit) but p knows you have min 4 cards in other major and an opening hand.

If you have both minors bid 2n/t (P knows u have no major)again an opening hand.

Against 2d openers treat them as 1's and x for take out.

agree with the shown example the x hopes, p will not have a rush of blood and jump in hts-if they do--bid clubs. if p just bids 1/2 hts-i rebid n/t's

 

One may ask what if you have 5/6 of a major and few points or even a lot of points,if weak just bid 2h/2s. if strong use the best minor feature.

And if one has a long minor again strong or weak,use limit bid for the hand-- in the minor.

by what action the second in hand adopts tells p whats going on.

the same applies if it gets round to p, now 3rd in hand...agreed one can be bounced

if 2nd position passes and other opp muddies the waters,with a raise of some description. all is not lost BEWARE and on guard if opps are non and you ARE:)

in this situ opps use that they may have only a 5 card suit to open 2d.

regards

 

One has to have an system rather than none

[cloa513]

2♠ denies interest in other major. The hand is not powerful as to run 9/8 tricks. Double raise to game with 4 spade would be OK if partner raises to 3 Spades bid 3NT.

[Fluffy]

with all those hearts around I am a passer, I will get to act later.

 

EDIT: before the toona constructs a deal that is passed out, I think it is just so likelly that the auction won't die in 2♦.

[gwnn]

I am willing to bet a lot of money that if we give this to 4 gibs and they play 1000000 deals, 50+% will be passed out.

[cherdanno]

with all those hearts around I am a passer, I will get to act later.

 

EDIT: before the toona constructs a deal that is passed out, I think it is just so likelly that the auction won't die in 2♦.

Huh? We have 19 hcp. Give everyone else 7, and I don't see anyone bidding. Who do you expect to bid hearts?

[gwnn]

you're ruining my secret plan to undeserved wealth and glory.

[whereagles]

I think that, while it is nowhere written as an explicit rule, it is safe to say that Robson and Segal do not advocate doubling and pulling hearts to spades with less than 5 spades.

Ok. However, doing so with 5-4 or 4-5 indisciminately does go in the direction they advocate, which is "keep your auction flexible after a pree".

 

The principle is very simple: double + pull = tolerance for unbid suits (be it 4 or 5 cards). I call this the ELC principle. Others would prefer to give it another name. Sometimes you'll double with a GOSH, but that's another story.

 

I'm guessing they didn't write down any strict rule regarding how many cards you have in the suit you pull onto because dealing with preempts is a matter of judgement and sometimes you'll just have to make-do with 4 cards. Usually you'll have 5, but this particular hand is so strong it is perfectly viable to do it on 4.

 

Obviously, it's also good judgement not to pull to a 4 card spade if you have a nice 6m-4♠. As it is to pull, say,

 

(3♦) dbl (pass) 3♥

 

to 3♠ on

 

AKQx

x

Axx

QJxxx

[gwnn]

I don't think it is good judgement at all to double with that hand in the first place. Also there are no examples at all in R/S where you have less than 2 cards in an unbid suit.

[whereagles]

I don't think it is good judgement at all to double with that hand in the first place. Also there are no examples at all in R/S where you have less than 2 cards in an unbid suit.

I'm not sure if you can deduce from there that you should not double with less than 2 cards in an unbid suit, even playing ELC.

[gwnn]

I can't deduce it but it is a strong indication. Similarly with the other situation, they show example hands for 8 different auctions and in none do they have a singleton in an unbid suit and in none do they pull to a 4 card suit. So I don't think you can claim that what you're advocating is in the book.

[pooltuna]

IMP Vul versus NVul

 

Dealer opens 2D weak

 

Your hand

♠KT9x

♥-

♦AKxx

♣AKQxx

 

Your move ?

 

regards

 

thebiker

 

Brian Keable

The truth is there is no good answer and consequently the * players are forbidden to take a shot otherwise maybe jlall, Fred, Pavlicek and their ilk would take a shot. Kfay is not aware that he is forbidden to answer :) The ugly choices (maybe best to say the only choices) look to be pass (ugh! you have to put up with my commentary), double (OMG where are my ♥), 2NT (I repeat, OMG where are my ♥), 3♣ (so what if I have an extra A and Q), 3♦ (partner won't pass this, 6♥ partner why on earth did you bid that) and the most beautiful winner is X (marks the spot where I get shot? :) )

[WellSpyder]

  The ugly choices (maybe best to say the only choices) look to be pass (ugh! you have to put up with my commentary), double (OMG where are my ♥), 2NT (I repeat, OMG where are my ♥), 3♣ (so what if I have an extra A and Q), 3♦ (partner won't pass this, 6♥ partner why on earth did you bid that) and the most beautiful winner is X (marks the spot where I get shot?  :) )

... and 3NT

[Phil]

Dying to see the hand.

 

Not that it matters of course....

[JanM]

I gave this hand to Chip and he said "you have to figure that if you play enough hands there will be some impossible ones after a preempt." But then he suggested something no one has advocated - 4♣, showing 5-5 in clubs and a Major. Overstates the spades, of course, but at least it gets across that this is a 2-suited hand. Means we won't be able to play 3NT, but it's not going to be easy to get to 3NT, and will be pretty impossible to get there and know it's right.

[mgoetze]

What I really hate is "WTP". It is amazing how many answers there are, and with good explanations. I would double and then be thrilled when partner bids spades. Or I will either bid clubs or nt depending.......

Sorry... just so happens I learned that double then bid a new suit shows you didn't have a takeout shape after all, and this hand is obviously too strong to bid 3♣. Apparently, there are some people who play that double is always for takeout no matter what you bid subsequently. I wonder how they bid certain other hands but oh well...

[the hog]

Pass is out of the question at this vulnerability. There are 3 options imo, 3NT, 3C and double. That is the order in which I rate them.

[mike777]

IMP Vul versus NVul

 

Dealer opens 2D weak

 

Your hand

♠KT9x

♥-

♦AKxx

♣AKQxx

 

Your move ?

 

regards

 

thebiker

 

Brian Keable

x

 

No problem yet

 

 

as usual cuebid or x with a tough forum hand......

[dburn]

Would double at the table, and try not to look anguished. Can't imagine bidding 3♣. Can just about imagine bidding 3NT, but would hate myself in the morning.

 

Not ashamed to say that even if I had ♠KQ109 and ♣AKxxx, 4♣ (clubs and a major) would never have occurred to me even though it is a great bid, and the reason people like Chip Martel win big tournaments while people like me watch them do it.

 

Still, more good things can happen after double than can happen after anything else. Imagine partner with ♠AQxxx and out. The 3NT bidders will lose the first six or seven heart tricks. The 3♣ bidders will be plus 190 if they can draw trump and ruff a diamond or two in dummy. Chip will be plus 710 in 4♠, winning 14 IMPs against the 3NT guys and 11 against the 3♣ guys, but losing 17 to the doublers who play in 7♠.

 

And if partner has only hearts? Well, maybe we can still end in 3NT. If we don't - what would we have ended up in if we had chosen some other action? Maybe in the real world I doubled, partner jumped to 4♥ and went for 1100 while at the other table 3♣ made exactly. But maybe not.

[Jlall]

Not ashamed to say that even if I had ♠KQ109 and ♣AKxxx, 4♣ (clubs and a major) would never have occurred to me even though it is a great bid, and the reason people like Chip Martel win big tournaments while people like me watch them do it.

Not at all why Chip Martel wins tournaments and others don't

[mike777]

Chip Martel?

 

Ok I bite why does he win? whatever, whoever he is

[helene_t]

What I really hate is "WTP".    It is amazing how many answers there are, and with good explanations.  I would double and then be thrilled when partner bids spades. Or I will either bid clubs or nt depending.......

Sorry... just so happens I learned that double then bid a new suit shows you didn't have a takeout shape after all, and this hand is obviously too strong to bid 3♣. Apparently, there are some people who play that double is always for takeout no matter what you bid subsequently. I wonder how they bid certain other hands but oh well...

Nobody is saying that double always shows a classic take-out shape. Double followed by 3♣ does not show 4315 - that hand would cuebid over partner's 2♥ bid. A doubleton in the major partner bids is normal and partner will try to avoid bidding a 5-card suit twice unless our next call is a cuebid. Double followed by 3♣ is typically 4216, 3226 or 3316.

 

Still, IMHO, you should try to avoid making take-out doubles with a singleton in an unbid major, and certainly with a void. Partner will probably insist on hearts if he has 6 of them. He might also bid hearts twice with xxxx-QJTxx-xxx-x but due to our diamond length that shape is not so likely.

 

Another problem with this hand is that we only have five clubs. It is not like we are excited about partner passing our 3♣ bid with a 4522 bust. But OK, that is a minor issue compared to the risks of bidding 2NT or 3NT with a void.

[Jlall]

Helene, I think 4315 would often bid 3C imo, it is a non forcing bid so it can be passed and be the right spot. If I was too strong for that then I would cuebid with that shape.

[helene_t]

Thanks, Justin. Interesting. If p has 4♥2♣ then cuebid will take us to the 4-3 heart fit with the diamond shortness with the short trumps, I think that is slightly better than a 5-2 clubs fit, but of course the clubs fit could also be 5-3 or 5-4.

[hanp]

I would also double, 3NT second choice. 4C also would not have occurred to me but it is an entertaining idea.

 

As impossible as this hand might be, I think that the 3C bidders are from a different planet and the passers have the vulnerability the wrong way around. 2NT is just an underbid and is therefore clearly inferior to 3NT imo, I don't really understand why one would bid 2NT.