am I crazy?

[gwnn]

There is a simple guideline for light overcalls: partner can and should force to game with a strong NT. I don't think we don't belong to game opposite a strong NT I think... Anyway the point is that it is not just a question of a certain pre-defined range. Even if you think partner with a strong NT will take you too high, it may be the case that it is still right to overcall.. This is because it might pay off the times partner does not have a strong NT, for example when he just raises us and the opps bid too high or they don't bid high enough etc.

[gwnn]

Anyway I can tell you that bidding S over H can be very annoying to opponents. I know it is to me! Oh crap they bid 4S over 4H again... Oh no we have no idea what's right. If only we could get these 2 jerks to STOP BIDDING... They are bidding on the worst hands possible but we are the ones who are losing the imps... Anyway it is fully possible that they x us somewhere or pass us somewhere and we go for 200. But even if pd competes to the 3 level or something I mean we then rate to be in a 7-4 fit, that can't be so bad..I.

[Cascade]

BTW, whenever you have a tough choice of bidding actions, it often pays to make the cheaper one unless doing so is a significant distortion. The cheaper the bid, the more room you leave partner, and the more information can be exchanged. Too many players focus only on their problem, not on partner's possible concerns. Bidding 3♠ tells partner that you are either not sure about where to go, or that you have a very good hand, and in the meantime gives partner more opportunity to clarify his hand.

This is some of the best general advice most beginner intermediates should read and understand.

[gwnn]

I don't like 3♦ so much BTW, I'd double, I am relatively balanced and I don't want to play in a 5-3 diamond fit except at the slam level..

[Cascade]

There is a simple guideline for light overcalls: partner can and should force to game with a strong NT. I don't think we don't belong to game opposite a strong NT I think... Anyway the point is that it is not just a question of a certain pre-defined range. Even if you think partner with a strong NT will take you too high, it may be the case that it is still right to overcall.. This is because it might pay off the times partner does not have a strong NT, for example when he just raises us and the opps bid too high or they don't bid high enough etc.

I usually think that a strong NT is only worth an invite over a weak two especially if we do not have a super fit for partner's suit.

[gwnn]

I agree but I was talking about 1 level overcalls

[Jlall]

The suit opened makes some difference.

Sure I agree, I more meant would you bid over any of 1C/1D/1H/1N?

 

Basically I meant in practice does it change your decision or not.

 

For me on this hand it is not (remotely) close enough in my judgement for it to matter to me what they opened. That being said on close decisions, I might decide based on those factors.

[Jlall]

Maybe I have developed bad habits from playing in weak fields. But I don't think 2♠ with this hand would be very dangerous. Neither opp will pass his p's double with less than four spades. Even if one opp has four spades, they may not be able to double, or occasionally they may not pass the double even with four spades. If we get to 2♠X we haven't lost the board yet. We may go for 1100 against a vulnerable slam.

Hey Helene,

 

If you always overcall 2S in weak fields, you will definitely get good results. But if you always passed in weak fields, you would also get good results. So it might be hard to say that 2S>p even if 2S isn't that dangerous, because you don't really know how much you've gained.

 

That said, I'm a big believer in preempting aggressively against bad opps, since most of them know what to do in constructive auctions most of the time (except slam bidding), but have poor judgement.

 

At imps, it seems like there isn't a huge amount of upside towards preempting here. You're unlikely to steal or talk them out of a game, and even if you happen to steal on their hand, if you go -200 or -300 you haven't gained much vs a white game.

 

If there is not much upside and not much downside, consider that you are hurting your bidding a lot when you have a real 2S bid. Partner will make less accurate decisions since you have a wider range, so it'd be better to keep a narrower range if the hands you add into the 2S bid aren't benefiting you very much.

 

At matchpoints there is a lot more upside to preempting, but there is a lot more downside, you could just go for 200 on a partscore hand which is terrible.

[Jlall]

Usually I am all for overcalling at the 1 level. However, bidding red/white with this hand seems pointless to me.

 

Generally you bid 1S in hopes that you can find a game, or find a save, or compete for the partial, or get a lead in, or just to be a nuisance to them.

 

I think being a nuisance to them red/white is unlikely to be a good idea with terrible hands. Finding a save r/w is not a consideration. When we are this weak, finding a game shouldn't be a consideration; we'll find it if we pass. Even if it's our hand to compete for the partial, probably partner will get us in there since our hand is so weak. If we overcall, he might well get us too high on those deals. We don't really need a spade lead.

 

Basically, I think bidding with this hand red/white is pointless, and not because partner might start cracking them. It is a definite possibility partner will overbid though, I would never blame him for game forcing a misfitting 17 or possibly 16.

 

And there is significant risk that he will bid a different suit hoping to compete or whatever, and we just get doubled. It is just a bad idea to bid r/w with complete garbage imo, the usual reasons do not apply, AND the risk is much higher.

[gwnn]

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

[Jlall]

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

I always take 2nd seat vul to mean red/white, perhaps this is a non standard interpretation?

[xcurt]

Usually I am all for overcalling at the 1 level. However, bidding red/white with this hand seems pointless to me.

Another reason overcalling is pointless is partner is unlikely to be able to raise spades, and if he can raise spades, at least one of the opponent is short there and will have an easy time competing.

 

In this regard the 7th spade is sort of a liability.

[jillybean]

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

I always take 2nd seat vul to mean red/white, perhaps this is a non standard interpretation?

That is what I intended, the 2♠ bidder was Red vs White

[gwnn]

OK red vs white I will pass, but it still feels weird to pass with 7 spades. I need to drink a glass of water before I pass.. :)

[jillybean]

BTW, whenever you have a tough choice of bidding actions, it often pays to make the cheaper one unless doing so is a significant distortion. The cheaper the bid, the more room you leave partner, and the more information can be exchanged. Too many players focus only on their problem, not on partner's possible concerns. Bidding 3♠ tells partner that you are either not sure about where to go, or that you have a very good hand, and in the meantime gives partner more opportunity to clarify his hand.

This is some of the best general advice most beginner intermediates should read and understand.

This is very good advice thanks, as well as only focusing on my own problems I often need reminding that I have a tendancy to feel like I need to make the decision myself and set the contract, rather than giving partner the information and trusting he will make the right decision. My partners are smart people.

 

I have been left in 3♠ before but it will only happen once with the same (BBO) partner :)

[Cascade]

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

I always take 2nd seat vul to mean red/white, perhaps this is a non standard interpretation?

Interesting.

 

I would have been more inclined to think All Vul as in

 

Favourable

NV

Vul

Unfavourable

 

I guess there are other ways to define these

 

NV

Nil

All

Vul

 

Fits your idea. And jillybean was thinking the same way.

 

This suggests we just need to be more precise in defining our vulnerability.

[gwnn]

Anyone else on 3D vs x? I have no strong reasons really but I feel like my hand looks like an X more than a 3D bid. I'd like to have 6 diamonds for 3D and it'd a nice feeling to be able to get in clubs too.

[Cascade]

Double is fine for me.

[bluecalm]

I like chiming in with 1♠ on such garbage hands with long suit but vulnerable it's too much even for me.

You need a partner who understands this style though to do that.

[hanp]

gwnn reincarnation

[lmilne]

Would never act unless favourable, might bid 2S or 3S at fav.

Maybe 1S at nil. I don't see what the upshot is though.

Haha, I'm a donk... I actually got dealt Q876542 J3 T5 J3 tonight and bid 1♠ over 1♣ at unfav. Got to a good 4♠, obv.

 

 

Guess that illustrates the difference between theory and practice for me.

[neilkaz]

Would never act unless favourable, might bid 2S or 3S at fav.

Maybe 1S at nil. I don't see what the upshot is though.

Haha, I'm a donk... I actually got dealt Q876542 J3 T5 J3 tonight and bid 1♠ over 1♣ at unfav. Got to a good 4♠, obv.

 

 

Guess that illustrates the difference between theory and practice for me.

Before you judge the merits of overcalling like this, you have to also assess whether you'd have gotten to 4♠ if you passed.

[kfay]

I think your 4♥ bid was fine.

wat?

[MinorKid]

I have encountered such a hand from RHO before.

RHO overcalled 4♠ on my partner's 1♦

for ♠Qxxxxxxx♥xxx♦-♣xx

 

And i've got ♠-♥Kxx♦KJTxx♣AKQJx

 

Why she bid like that? It's because we were too cute. Our partnership was too optimistic.