Takout double: "agressive" or just bad...

[bluecalm]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=shqjt85daj63cj652]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Bidding went:

 

2♠ pass - 4♠ - ????

 

I doubled here. My partner thinks I am insane.

While I admit at this vul double looks kind of crazy it still isn't that bad.

I think at other vul double would be clearcut winner as I think missing 9-10 card fit with void in their main suit is just too costly.

Of course sometimes we go for 800 or they make an overtrick doubled but the hands where we are making something or they are making 4♠ should be enough to offset occasional big numbers.

 

Thoughts ? :)

[jjbrr]

confirmed insane

[Hanoi5]

I agree with the aforementioned diagnostic.

[pooltuna]

confirmed insane

nah, just highly anti%age and some might argue anti partnership :)

[bid_em_up]

Thoughts ?

Your partner would make an excellent psychiatrist.

[jdonn]

Bad, can work well at times.

[Bbradley62]

Your partner was being polite and tactful.

[neilkaz]

P=10 X=1

 

Double isn't completely insane (that would rate a 0 from me)

 

However, doubling is clearly overly aggressive. A major problem with doubling is that you have no idea whether the opps are bidding as an advance sac or to make.

Therefore you have no idea whether PD is broke or not. If the opps are bidding to make your hand may take only 1 trick on defence. If RHO has a decent hand and PD bids, you could be -1100 in 5 of whatever.

 

You may be getting stolen from, and PD could have 4♠ or otherwise be just short of his own bid, but you have a clear pass here.

[quiddity]

Bad. Consider

- partner normally has a balanced hand with 3 or 4 spades. He will almost never take out to the 5-level so your 9 or 10 card fit will just be a liability on defense.

- if partner has a good unbalanced hand, he will expect more from your hand on average. Some of the expected gains from making a 5-level contract will be lost when partner bids a hopeless slam.

- if partner has a terrible hand (and East can have a very strong hand on this auction), a doubled overtrick is not the worst case. East can redouble. Your side can go for more than 800.

[Jlall]

very very bad

[ONEferBRID]

DBL is clearly wrong because it is for PENALTY over 4S.

4NT! = 3-suited T/O... not that I'd use it with this hand.

[bluecalm]

DBL is clearly wrong because it is for PENALTY over 4S.

 

We play it as t/o. I appreciate you care to share your treatment but please don't state is as fact. I doubt playing is as penalty is majority expert treatment anyway. In any case it would be inconsistent with general rules we have.

 

I accept double may be bad. I like experimenting a lot and I had an impression letting such hands go loses me a lot of imps I guess I haven't seen enough 800's yet.

 

Is this that clear pass for all of you at other vuls ?

If so, can you give minimum hand you would double with at at least one vulnerability ?

 

Thanks for answers :)

[awm]

The issue is that your hand isn't very good, and I don't think the opponents are required to have a huge number of spades on this auction. Certainly I've raised 2♠ to game on a good hand with two or three card support before, haven't you?

 

So most of the time you are going down at the five-level, possibly a lot. Partner will sometimes leave in a double (say he has four spades to an honor and no five-card suit) and 4♠ will often make because your hand provides maybe one trick of defense instead of the expected three or so.

 

If the vulnerability were reversed (we are white, they are red) then I think double is a reasonable (although still aggressive) action. You will find a lot of good sacrifices and the rare making game, to compensate for the times you go for a number or defend a making 4♠X.

[655321]

I don't think that double is quite as insane as everyone else does, but I am probably insane too. :)

 

I do think that doubling on this sort of hand is playable. Partner will have to be on the same wavelength - i.e. he will remove the double more often than he will after a more traditional double - and you will have to pass on your more balanced hands. Even playing such a pure takeout style, whether this particular hand would qualify R/W is debatable, another Ace or King instead of a couple of the Jacks would be nice.

 

 

DBL is clearly wrong because it is for PENALTY over 4S.

A few seconds thought before posting would reveal that obviously OP does not play double as penalty, and you wouldn't have embarrassed yourself in this way.

[jdonn]

DBL is clearly wrong because it is for PENALTY over 4S.

 

We play it as t/o. I appreciate you care to share your treatment but please don't state is as fact. I doubt playing is as penalty is majority expert treatment anyway.

It used to be decades ago but it's not any more. Of course some people like to live in the past.

[ONEferBRID]

Well, 4NT! is pure T/O .

 

Call the DBL whatever you want it to be ..... but you don't need two calls to mean the same thing ... ( I would think that "experts" would know this ).

[jdonn]

"Experts" know that 4NT is two places to play and double is takeout for all suits.

[bluecalm]

Call the DBL whatever you want it to be ..... but you don't need two calls to mean the same thing ... ( I would think that "experts" would know this ).

 

Experts also know that even if there is no need to show 2suiter it's still better to have dbl as t/o because partner can leave it in which you want if you don't have crazy shape. Passing 4NT is not that profitable if he happens to have AQTx of spades...

[ONEferBRID]

I stand corrected.

Eddie Kantar's Bidding tips ( 2/19/09 ) shows the current conventional wisdom over 4S to be:

... DBL = either a) strong balanced hand, at least the equivalent of a strong NT bid

or b ) Sp shortness such as: S. 4 H. AJ87 D. AK54 C. KJ43

 

... and 4NT! = some 2-suited hand, presumably the minors:

East South West North

4S     4NT     Pass     5C

Pass 5D

 

But when the 4NT bidder removes partner's 5C response to 5D, it means the 4NT bidder has hearts and diamonds. Perhaps: S. x H. AQJxx D. AKJxxx C. x