defense to 1nt defenses

[jdonn]

Where I find my method helpful, and where I am not sure what you would do, is when the opponents overcall (say) 2♣ to show one (unspecified) suit. My double is still takeout of clubs (in fact, my double is defined as Stayman, though opener will pass it only with clubs and bid 2♦ only with diamonds). What is yours?

Stayman. You caught me I have an exception, double of most artificial 2♣ overcalls is stayman for me.

[Siegmund]

I am used to being seen on the forum as oldfashioned so that part doesnt disturb me. :) I think awm summed it up well with his assessment about the mix of triumphs and disasters switching to takeout at the 2-level involves. And, replying briefly to jlall:

 

At the very least you must play t/o Xs at the 3 level since otherwise you're screwed

 

Yes, at the 3-level I do play them, and I think they've been the majority treatment for a long time. (Not that I'm necessarily happy about it - but the loss of 4-4 major fits would be too high a price to pay to seek the penalties more actively.)

 

I was a little surprised by a few of the claims in this thread though. For instance, jdonn's:

 

If opener can be expected to reopen with shortness when his hand is decent you get back many penalties. And though you lose some when responder would have doubled but opener can't reopen, they are made up for with others when responder makes a takeout double and opener can pass. Really playing takeout doubles doesn't get you very many fewer penalties and lets you compete a whole lot more often. It's a no brainer to me.

 

The hands where responder has a big stack you can punish playing either kind of double, just like negative doubles over suit openings, yes. The much more numerous hands were responder has a flat 5-8 and was going to pass 1NT are the ones you lose. And you don't get those back playing takeout doubles.

 

I don't get "lets you compete a whole lot more often" either. If responder has a 5-card suit, he can still bid it. If he has values and a 4-card major, he can still choose between 3N and 4M. If he has a big hand he can choose between a penalty and bidding game (playing takeout X he has to just bid the game.) The only hands where responder WANTS to compete but can't playing penalty doubles are the weak hands with shortness in overcaller's suit - sort of like Garbage stayman hands only the shortness isn't clubs.

 

I wonder if it's another IMP vs MP thing. Give responder Jxx KJx Jxxx xxx or xxxx Kxx xx Kxxx, for instance. A crystal clear penalty double of a natural 2H overcall at MPs, which will work about 80% of the time. (The first is a dead minimum penalty double of a natural 2S overcall too, but that will only work maybe 60% of the time.) The times it doesn't work are mostly times partner has xx in hearts and would reopen if you were playing takeout (and you won't make 2S or 3D, either, though if you don't get doubled you'll likely show a modest profit, -50 or -100 instead of -110 for staying in 2H.) Does the IMP-specialist crowd have "never double for a one-trick set" drilled so deeply into their brains they pass this hand at MPs?

 

Gerben said

Every time a partner insists on penalty Dbl an "I told you so" hand seems to come up, though, so there are less and less of such partners

 

Funny, that. I can't remember the last time I saw a hand where I wished I had a takeout double available after 1NT-2M (though I do remember a small number of hands where I doubled for penalty and gave up 470 or more.) But I see a heck of a lot of "I told you so" hands where responder has a clear penalty and can't inflict it -- admittedly this is in part because at club games there are people overcalling 2M over 1NT on the same quality of hands they'd bid 1M over 1C.

[jdonn]

Yes you are old fashioned. And if you think doubling a 2♠ overcall on Jxx KJx Jxxx xxx will work 60% of the time then I want to play in the games you play in. I hope you double me on that.

[Siegmund]

Against sound overcallers (more or less anyone who can be trusted to have 6 spades) and talented declarers, doubling 2S is a loser. Not having a full spade trick in my hand that was a stretch. It's something to only do against 2/3 of the field in a club game and 1/3 of the field in a regional pairs, and only if your partner is someone you have a good defensive rapport with.

 

Whatever I may think of your posts on bidding, you, personally, happen to be a better declarer than I am, in respect of which I will wait for an extra half-trick or so in my hand before I double you :)

[awm]

I think I disagree with Siegmund here, but I still like penalty doubles at the two-level.

 

I disagree with Siegmund about the frequency of wanting to double for penalty holding only three cards in the enemy suit. Much like Josh, I have found that this only occasionally pays off. Usually it does not make all that much difference whether opener has two small or three small opposite.

 

Thus I agree that if you require opener to reopen with a double whenever he has a small doubleton in the enemy suit, you will get back most (not all, but most) of your penalty doubles. There are occasionally hands where the opponents have a six card fit only (especially if the overcall is 5M/4m and advancer passes on junk hoping to avoid the axe), and there are occasionally hands where responder really does have that three cards in their suit penalty double hand, but both of these are rare.

 

On the other hand, I still disagree that this makes takeout doubles a better treatment. The problem is that if opener reopens with a double whenever he has a small doubleton in the enemy suit, you get overboard a lot. This is especially true when their suit is spades. You are basically committing to the three-level on what's often two balanced hands, and every time responder has some pile of trash you can easily go two down at the three-level opposite air. One "solution" to this is for opener not to balance so much (say, only balance on primed out super-maxes with doubleton in their suit) but then you really are not recovering very many penalty doubles and responder isn't really safe to pass holding game values and a stack in their suit, in case the double never comes.

 

In my experience, people who play takeout doubles tend to chalk this up to "bad luck" or "opener should've judged better to balance or not" but this is not really the case... basically you cannot avoid the occasional fix from these methods. In exchange, you do get some wins on partscore deals where it's easier to get into the auction when responder holds shortage in the enemy suit.

 

In general I'd say that penalty doubles are better after a 2♠ overcall, takeout doubles are better after a natural 2♦ overcall, and it's quite close versus a natural 2♥ overcall.

[Mbodell]

I think I disagree with Siegmund here, but I still like penalty doubles at the two-level.

 

I disagree with Siegmund about the frequency of wanting to double for penalty holding only three cards in the enemy suit. Much like Josh, I have found that this only occasionally pays off. Usually it does not make all that much difference whether opener has two small or three small opposite.

I totally agree with Siegmund.

 

I think it depends a lot on your nt ranges and the quality of your opponents. I just finished a set at our local club game (on one of our stronger club field nights no less) where 7/27 boards were doubled contracts after we opened 1 nt. And 5 of the 7 came about because of penalty doubles of 2 level overcalls, most of which were hands where I held just 3 trumps in a balanced hands. (The other two were a penalty double of 1nt when we had the goods, and opponent confusion on if a delayed double was t/o or penalty). We averaged 73% on these boards with only one bad result (which was on the "failed" penalty double where they ran to 2♣X and we took only 5 of our 6 top tricks).

 

But we are playing variable 10-12 or 12-14 nt and especially over the 10-12 people feel like you are stealing their lunch so you can easily pass a flat 12 count opposite a 10-12 and then want to double them when they step into your auction even if you only hold 3 small. It is matchpoints so a 1 trick set and not sweating the occasional doubled part score really is a big deal (especially if they are red). And when you play mini or weak nt more of the hands are part score hands, so the number of times you are happy to play for 200 (red) or 300 (white) when you weren't going to game are much higher. Over strong NT I can believe the frequencies are quite different.

[bill1157]

pass of 2m/1N is forcing X penalty

Obviously this agreement is very dependent on range.

maybe not. If opps pass out 1NT-(2c)-P-(P)

seems like partner has some values regardless of the NT range.

 

Bill

[Finch]

dburn has sort of inversely made the point I was going to.

 

The optimal set of methods when opponents come in over your 1NT opening depend on what the opponents are playing. You should probably play something different against 2M showing a 5-card major and a longer minor than against a 6+ card 2M overcall. You should playing something different against 2C = hearts and another compared to 2C = both majors.

 

Given all of that, you might as well do one of two things:

1. Play your calls & bids as meaning exactly the same no matter what the opponents' overcall means.

2. Have a detailed set of agreements which vary dramatically according to the detail of opponents' methods.

 

It won't surprise many people to know that my regular partnerships go for (2), but we aren't that complete. Our defenses are split into only 4 categories:

- double or 2C without an anchor suit

- the bid/call is natural (with or without additional suits)

- the bid/call has one anchor suit, not the suit bid

- the bid/call shows two or more specific suits

 

We probably ought to have more. But we don't.