Pass or double?

[mohitz]

Playing 2/1, partner deals and bids 1♠. RHO overcalls 2♦ as you show a good raise in spades by bidding 3♦. This is doubled by LHO and partner bids 4♠. RHO now bids 5♦

 

[hv=d=n&s=s8xxhakxxdaxxcxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Auction:

 

1♠ - (2♦) - 3♦! - (X)

4♠ - (5♦) - ?

 

Questions:

 

1) Is pass forcing here?

2) What do you bid? If your answer depends on vulnerability, please mention.

 

TIA

[rogerclee]

Whether pass is forcing is up to your agreements, but IMO it's not (I would like to play pass is forcing if r/w). Even if it were I would double. You have good defense, 4333 shape, a minimum hand, and bad trumps, all of which point to doubling.

[peachy]

This hand was good enough to either Dbl (neg) or 3D (LR or better spades). I might have made Neg Dbl.

 

For me, Pass now is not forcing and the reason is that we did not make a constructive GF with 3D; it was only limit raise or better. You need agreements about forcing pass, for my simple mind "we constructively bid game or we are in GF auction creates FP" is a guideline that is easy to remember and will not cause misunderstandings. Other agreements exist and who knows, they might be even better.

 

Now, I Dbl. Balanced shape, bad trumps, defensive tricks.

[EricK]

I think pass in this situation should be forcing. Yes, you have only made a limit raise rather than a GF raise, but partner has had a chance to speak since then, and he has shown sufficient extras to have bid game.

 

Having said that, this is an obvious double whatever Pass would have meant.

[Phil]

This auction is not forcing for me. A limit raise with partner raising to game does not create a force at any vulnerability.

 

Partner would need to show a control over the x (not 3♥), xx or bid 3N to create a force.

[gwnn]

i'm happy to play this as forcing, limit+ values and on the 5 level (I am fully aware that this agreement will not work 100% of the time).

 

but i'd x because i have 4x3 with xxx of trumps.

[jdonn]

I'd double because I am bad for offense and have top tricks to take.

[Fluffy]

yes, forcing pass because of the cuebid, cuebid sets forcing pass at the 5 level.

 

I double.

 

Oh, here is what pass or doble actually is

[quiddity]

Given a cuebid and a game bid by our side, surely it is far more likely than not that 5D is going down. We rate to lose more imps by making the wrong decision here than by doubling a making contract so why would you want to play the pass as non-forcing?

[jjbrr]

doblo

[aguahombre]

As Phil said, Opener could have created a forcing pass situation, knowing there would be more comp. But he didn't. He just jumped to the spade game.

 

As others have said, who cares? I double.

[Jlall]

We have AK A and no offense, seems like the easiest X ever. Much prefer a neg X the round before to a 3D bid also.

[Phil]

FTR I double as well. Seems pretty easy.

 

I'm sort of confused by those that want to play forcing passes here and still double. Might this be a really subnuts dummy if partner were to bid 5♠? So why are we suggesting a defensive minimum unsuitable for 5♠?

 

And I've yet to hear a sensible argument why a pass should be forcing here.

[Jlall]

Might this be a really subnuts dummy if partner were to bid 5♠? So why are we suggesting a  defensive minimum unsuitable for 5♠?

Yes? Because we have 3 small trumps and 4333 and the DA and an 11 count with 3 QT..seems quite "defensive" and "minimum" also...

 

I'd really want partner to never bid 5S if I have this hand.

[jdonn]

I'm sort of confused by those that want to play forcing passes here and still double. Might this be a really subnuts dummy if partner were to bid 5♠? So why are we suggesting a defensive minimum unsuitable for 5♠?

Late April Fools Day joke?

[quiddity]

And I've yet to hear a sensible argument why a pass should be forcing here.

We don't have to have a balanced defensive min. We could be holding a game-force. We could have a bit more offense and a bit less sure defense. What are you going to do with that hand - double and show this one? Pass and watch partner pass it out? Bid 5S and see partner come down with a hand which was waiting to slaughter 5D?

 

They're never going to make the wrong decision if partner is forced to tell them the score at the 3-level with a redouble.

[Fluffy]

pass is forcing because 3♦ is unlimmited but shows more HCP than them.

 

Letting them play undoubled is very very hardly right, it requires that they make 11 tricks with less strenght and that we don't even have a profitable sacrifice.

 

In the other hand, when we have an almost slam force hand or a good ofensive hand we will want to pass.

 

Pass could be right as non forcing on some hands, but IMO in the long run it pays to play it as forcing after any cuebid because you normally have more than invitational values.

[Phil]

We don't have to have a balanced defensive min. 

 

Are you implying we could hold an 'unbalanced' defensive minimum? xxx AQxx Ax Qxxx? I'd still double with this. Or are you implying we could hold a 'balanced offensive minimum' (whatever this means - but if I held a 4th trump the actual hand might qualify...memo to Josh: side aces and Kings are offensive and defensive).

 

We could be holding a game-force. 

 

Sure, and we can still double or bid 5♠ ourselves. Our hand is somewhat defined because we didn't fit jump and pard is in the picture.

We could have a bit more offense and a bit less sure defense.

 

And this hand will gladly pass knowing we don't have a strong opinion about 5♦. We still have a partner. On the other hand the forcing passers need to double frequently to 'warn off' partner with many minimums.

 

What are you going to do with that hand - double and show this one?  Pass and watch partner pass it out?  Bid 5S and see partner come down with a hand which was waiting to slaughter 5D? 

 

See above - if we both pass I doubt we are 'slaughtering' anything - they might roll it.

 

They're never going to make the wrong decision if partner is forced to tell them the score at the 3-level with a redouble.

 

I'm much more worried about us making the right decision at the five level.

[jdonn]

Wow you were serious, I honestly couldn't tell. Phil you have xxx of trumps and you're 4333 and you have a minimum and you have an honor in the opponents' suit... A forcing pass is usually something like a 4324 GF on this auction, not a 3433 invite.

[gnasher]

I prefer pass to be forcing here: we have at least an invitational hand opposite an opening bid, and the hand doing the passing is unlimited.

 

If it were opener who were passing, I wouldn't play it as forcing, because he had an opportunity to bid 4♦ but didn't do so.

[mohitz]

We have AK A and no offense, seems like the easiest X ever. Much prefer a neg X the round before to a 3D bid also.

I must say that I am surprised by the responses suggesting a negative double. Is it normal to negative X with most hands that have 3 card support and 4 in the other major or is it because our spades are bad and hearts good?

 

I always thought one had to support with support on this auction. They might bump up the bidding and that will leave us in an uncomfortable position later.

[pooltuna]

Playing 2/1, partner deals and bids 1♠. RHO overcalls 2♦ as you show a good raise in spades by bidding 3♦. This is doubled by LHO and partner bids 4♠. RHO now bids 5♦

 

[hv=d=n&s=s8xxhakxxdaxxcxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Auction:

 

1♠ - (2♦) - 3♦! - (X)

4♠ - (5♦) - ?

 

Questions:

 

1) Is pass forcing here?

2) What do you bid? If your answer depends on vulnerability, please mention.

 

TIA

I would attempt to warn partner ...so X

[Jlall]

I pretty much always neg X with 3-4 and an invitational hand. If the auction goes say 1S 2D X 3D p p 3S, imo that's what I am showing.

 

The usual reason for supporting immediately is to avoid getting preempted before I get to raise, but with a hand like this I'm not particularly worried about that.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 yes, you invited game, p accepted the invite and did bid game, so

pass is forcing

#2 X, you are bal., you are min, you have 3 tricks outside spades, what

else?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Bbradley62]

You need agreements about forcing pass, for my simple mind "we constructively bid game or we are in GF auction creates FP" is a guideline that is easy to remember and will not cause misunderstandings.

Could you please explain what "constructively" means if it does not include opening bid, limit raise, and free acceptance of game invitation? Does it require two opening hands?