Slam auction?

[Little Kid]

1♦-1♥

1NT-2♦*

2♥-3♥

?

 

*2♦ art, GF

 

Does 3♥ force a ♠ cue if you have one? In other words, does the 3♠ bid imply anything about your own interest in slam other than owning a ♠ control? Say you hold something that would be a min for your 1NT bid like:

♠ KJT

♥ JTx

♦ QJ9x

♣ QJT

 

3♠ or 3NT?

 

EDIT: Yes 3♣s, I have trouble counting to 13 =)

Edited April 2, 2010 by Little Kid

[jdonn]

If you're sure 3NT would be natural then I think it's definitely the best bid. "I want to slow the auction down" sure seems like a more accurate description of the hand (and one that hasn't been given yet) than "I have a spade control". Of course this is dependent on the understanding that you don't deny a spade control by not showing one automatically.

[gwnn]

i dont understand your example hand. even though it has 14 cards it's still too weak to open

[jdonn]

I just assumed it had a club less given that it showed 4 diamonds and 3 hearts and the spade ten looked so intentional.

[Little Kid]

Sorry, I may not have phrased it very well. The question is, would you assume 3NT denies a ♠ cue with no prior agreements?

[junyi_zhu]

If you're sure 3NT would be natural then I think it's definitely the best bid. "I want to slow the auction down" sure seems like a more accurate description of the hand (and one that hasn't been given yet) than "I have a spade control". Of course this is dependent on the understanding that you don't deny a spade control by not showing one automatically.

3NT should be natural, opener has limited his hand within a 3 points range (if not 2 or 1 points if you allow 3H to show extra) , I don't see a lot of points to play serious/nonserious 3NT here.

[rogerclee]

Sorry, I may not have phrased it very well. The question is, would you assume 3NT denies a ♠ cue with no prior agreements?

absolutely not

[kenrexford]

With that hand, I might well tell a fib and rebid 3NT after 2♦, personally.

[fred]

Not that is is especially relevant to this hand, but it is a good idea (that for some reason the world hasn't figured out) to play that the 2NT response to 2D says you have a 4333 hand.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Not that is is especially relevant to this hand, but it is a good idea (that for some reason the world hasn't figured out) to play that the 2NT response to 2D says you have a 4333 hand.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I'm not sure I want to be forced to bid 3♣ on 3244 if I don't want to. Also if the opening was 1♣ could that be 4333 with spades or clubs? (but likewise I could be 3244 then as well and not want to bid 3♦).

 

In my perfect world over 2♥ responder could bid a natural 2NT on (otherwise) appropriate hands that have either 4 or 5 hearts, and if a 5-3 fit is going to be right someone will bid 3♥ on the way or the partnership will otherwise work it out.

[fred]

Not that is is especially relevant to this hand, but it is a good idea (that for some reason the world hasn't figured out) to play that the 2NT response to 2D says you have a 4333 hand.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I'm not sure I want to be forced to bid 3♣ on 3244 if I don't want to. Also if the opening was 1♣ could that be 4333 with spades or clubs? (but likewise I could be 3244 then as well and not want to bid 3♦).

 

In my perfect world over 2♥ responder could bid a natural 2NT on (otherwise) appropriate hands that have either 4 or 5 hearts, and if a 5-3 fit is going to be right someone will bid 3♥ on the way or the partnership will otherwise work it out.

I am not sure what to say other than it seems to have worked well for me over the past 15 years or so that I have played this way. In my experience it is very common for responder life's to be made easier either when he knows right away that opener is 4333 or he knows right away that opener is not 4333.

 

For sure you are right that, if your partnership is serious, you need to discuss the next round of bidding (though I imagine the same is true regardless of how you bid over 2D).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Cascade]

There is plenty of room so some compromise could work.

 

2NT = some 4333 or 3244 with a subsequent ask

[mike777]

1♦-1♥

1NT-2♦*

2♥-3♥

?

 

*2♦ art, GF

 

Does 3♥ force a ♠ cue if you have one? In other words, does the 3♠ bid imply anything about your own interest in slam other than owning a ♠ control? Say you hold something that would be a min for your 1NT bid like:

♠ KJT

♥ JTx

♦ QJ9x

♣ QJT

 

3♠ or 3NT?

 

EDIT: Yes 3♣s, I have trouble counting to 13 =)

basically yes...I think 3h demands a cuebid.

 

I bid 4h here

 

3nt I think would be serious 3nt, very often looking for a club cuebid.

 

btw I have no issue with opening this hand if pard expects it. Dead minimum bal 11 but still ok.

[rogerclee]

Fred, I have two questions

 

1) Does this mean that you will bid 2N even with a very prime 4333 hand? It seems to me that I would not want to bid 2N with something like Axx Axx KQxx xxx, but it sounds like you do it anyway. Also I would really like to be able to bid 2N with a hand like KJx Qx Jxxx AQxx, but it seems like you like to bid 3C with these kinds of hands. How do you feel about this? I have always thought it was important to show the general nature of my honor structure in this auction.

 

2) In general I hate describing my exact shape when I think it's very likely I'm just going to declare 3N. Do you think this isn't a serious loss?

[fred]

Fred, I have two questions

 

1) Does this mean that you will bid 2N even with a very prime 4333 hand? It seems to me that I would not want to bid 2N with something like Axx Axx KQxx xxx, but it sounds like you do it anyway. Also I would really like to be able to bid 2N with a hand like KJx Qx Jxxx AQxx, but it seems like you like to bid 3C with these kinds of hands. How do you feel about this? I have always thought it was important to show the general nature of my honor structure in this auction.

 

2) In general I hate describing my exact shape when I think it's very likely I'm just going to declare 3N. Do you think this isn't a serious loss?

I am not answering your questions explicitly, but I hope this will help...

 

For me there are 2 reasons why I would bid 2D:

 

1) Because I am interested in slam and want to ask partner about his hand (as opposed to tell him about my hand)

 

2) Because I know what game I want to play if we have an 8-card major suit fit

 

For me 2D is (generally) not used for hands that want to involve partner in a choice-of-games decision.

 

In my experience, knowing partner's distribution is often very important in terms of evaluating my hand for the purposes of 1). Consider the auction that is the subject of this thread:

 

1D-1H-1NT-2D-2H-3H-3S

 

Where 2H just means "3-card support with any distribution" and where 3S is a cuebid.

 

I am sure you can see that responder might easily have a hand such that a slam is possible, but his lack of knowledge of opener's distribution will make it hard to know if 12 tricks are available even if the partnership has some super-fancy cuebidding agreements.

 

It is true that, for the purposes of 2), the sort of responses to 2D that I like to play sometimes provide some information that is not useful to me but may be useful to the opening leader.

 

So yes, I would always bid 2NT as opener with 4333. If partner wants to know my shape then he will be happy to know it. If partner wants to know how much I like my hand or what specific high cards I have, there is still a ton of room for him to find out.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Jlall]

I don't understand the 4333 discussion...the opening bid was 1D.. Fred does what you're saying apply to a 1C opener or do you open 1D sometimes with 4333?

 

I;m a little drunk so sorry if this was answered already.

[jdonn]

I think he means any 4333, so exactly 3343 in this case. One of my questions is if he opened 1♣ must 2NT later be 3334 or could it be 4333.

[Jlall]

I think he means any 4333, so exactly 3343 in this case. One of my questions is if he opened 1♣ must 2NT later be 3334 or could it be 4333.

oh i see 3343 thx.

[gnasher]

I also dislike (or, in fact, hate) the idea of showing my exact shape unnecessarily. Instead, you could just bid 2♥, on all hands with three-card support, and use 2♠ over that to ask for opener's shape.

 

If you swap 2♠ and 2NT in all sequences, you can get quite a good method without much memory strain:

 

2♥ = 3-card support, then

  2♠ = asking for shape, with naturalish continuations

              (2NT shows 4 spades, 3♥ shows 3343, 3♣/♦ natural)

  2NT = 4 spades

2♠ = neither 4 spades nor three hearts (then 2NT asks for a descriptive rebid)

2NT = 4 spades, not 4 hearts (ie 4243)

 

This way, if responder wants to know about opener's shape, he gets more information than Fred would; if he doesn't, he gets almost the minimum necessary.

 

I know that there are more sophisticated methods available: the idea of this one is that the only thing you have to remember is that 2♠ and 2NT are always swapped.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Make the cue.

 

I would play 3NT as serious (or frivolious) in this auction (*), since for me

p has ruled out, that we want to play NT.

So I would make the cue, although I can understand, that you dont want

to make any enciouraging noise given the trash you opened.

But, and that is the point, if opening this trash systemic, than p has to

expect this kind of trash, if it is nonsystemic, than you already have

violated the partnership agreements.

 

(*) Serious / frivolious in the context of what opener has already shown, a

bal. shape, min for 12-14 and 3 card support.

=> If you make the cue and denying serious interest, that this would show

the trash you happen to hold.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[dake50]

As Fred, show shape (bal 2NT here) first. Maybe loses the perfect controls slam. But always puts the other non-bal rebids on firm ground.

Essentially, where is ambiguity allowed? In every rebid? In one specific rebid(here 2NT)?

[gwnn]

the example hand is a 20 on zar scale whereas even mikeh's recent unfortunate hand is a 11 :rolleyes:

[P_Marlowe]

the example hand is a 20 on zar scale whereas even mikeh's recent unfortunate hand is a 11 :rolleyes:

?

 

As far as I know, you need 26 Zarpoints to open, in other words,

even if you weaken this req., the hand is below opening strength.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

yes I know. as you might have seen from my previous post I agree with that.