This 4C

[brillage]

You LHO PD RHO

1♣ Pass 1♦ Pass

1♥ Pass 4♣

 

What's the meaning of 4C?

A. splinter

B. Club supporting

C. others

[gwnn]

splinter. usually 3451 or so. this is from my phone so I can't link you to the old thread were this has been discussed.

[the hog]

It means what you and your partner have agreed it to mean.

For me, opener has shown 5+C and 4H and now 4C sets the suit and invites cues. Others may well have different meanings. My partnerships have a rule that we NEVER splinter in a suit partner has bid naturally. Seriously consider the odds of how often your stiff will face wasted values.

[Jlall]

Splinter

 

Seriously consider the odds of how often your stiff will face wasted values.

 

Umm the point of a splinter is to determine whether you do or not. If you do, partner can sign off. If you don't, it would have been hard to diagnose otherwise.

[the hog]

Splinter

 

Seriously consider the odds of how often your stiff will face wasted values.

 

Umm the point of a splinter is to determine whether you do or not. If you do, partner can sign off. If you don't, it would have been hard to diagnose otherwise.

As I said, splinter for you, natural for me. As I hold at least 5/13 of the C suit, at most 4 cards in the pointed suits and an opening hand, I think the odds of me having some values in Cs are quite high. Also, my suit has been set, you would have to undergo some contortions to set Cs, but each to her own.

[cherdanno]

Someone should teach xyz to The_Hog...

[the hog]

Someone should teach xyz to The_Hog...

I much prefer Idzdebski transfers. Would you like me to teach them to you?

[aguahombre]

the HOG is not using xyz. And his opinion is a possible answer, even if it wouldn't be your answer.

 

Justin's would be mine, because now opener will know that a weak club suit and stuff in the others is a good thing. But you gotta agree, as the Hog says, to go thru 4th suit and a bunch of contortions if you really have clubs and slam interest in Clubs.

 

All this B.S. is another reason to use 1C-2D as slammish with both suits or slammish with just diamonds....getting the possibility of a slammish club fit out of the mix. If you have that available, it is more reasonable to use the given auction to show 3-4-5-1 and slammish...or close to that.

[655321]

But you gotta agree, as the Hog says, to go thru 4th suit and a bunch of contortions if you really have clubs and slam interest in Clubs..

Umm - what does "bunch of contortions" add to your argument? I would prefer to say that 4♣ is a bid that could be used (by agreement) as something other than clubs, because whenever you have clubs and slam interest in clubs you can easily go through 4th suit forcing.

[cherdanno]

the HOG is not using xyz. And his opinion is a possible answer, even if it wouldn't be your answer.

His point that a splinter is not very often useful here is valid. His claim that it is better to waste 3 levels of bidding to set clubs as trumps is not.

[aguahombre]

My loving spouse pointed out to me that ---even if 1C-2D was strong, the following hand is possible:

 

X KXX AKXXX KXXX

 

This hand gets very big, only after the 1H rebid, which guarantees an unbalanced hand. and it can waste those 3 levels to describe same.

 

Whereas, with KXX X AKXXX KXXX, responder would go slowly thru 4th suit GF ---establish clubs as trumps, and thus have shown the pattern.

[Siegmund]

I like splinters here, and it's what I'd assume the majority treatment was / what I'd expect if a strong unknown who I knew played 'normal' splinters produced this sequences with prior discussion. It's not the only possible agreement, as we've seen.

 

But you gotta agree, as the Hog says, to go thru 4th suit and a bunch of contortions if you really have clubs and slam interest in Clubs.

 

There is no law against playing 1X-1Y-1Z-3X natural and forcing, and putting the invitations through FSF, either. It deserves more consideration than most people give it these days. (Yes, I know it's a minority view, and not what I'd expect playing 2/1 without discussion. It's one of my first questions in a discussion with a new SA partner.)

[jdonn]

Splinters are standard. The hog and I had a long ugly argument about this in a thread some time ago. He is still wrong, right for what he plays but wrong for what most people play and what you should play.

[the hog]

snipped

 

and what you should play.

Since when have you become the "Systems Nazi"?

Further, to say I am "wrong" is childish. I have already stated why I believe splintering in one of partner's suits is a losing system bid. You have added nothing to the argument.

[peachy]

Even if there is no agreement specifically what it is here - if splinters are on the card, this is a splinter. When in doubt and it could be a splinter, it is. There are other ways to support clubs and make it forcing.

[655321]

Splinters are standard. The hog and I had a long ugly argument about this in a thread some time ago.

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18627

[rogerclee]

Hog, two things

 

1) Even though you said 5+ clubs, presumably your partner can be 4414.

2) Please provide an example hand where 4C is much more effective than bidding 1S (art GF) and then clubs (jumping to 4C, if need be!). I can easily provide hands for you where the opposite is true.

[the hog]

Hog, two things

 

1) Even though you said 5+ clubs, presumably your partner can be 4414.

2) Please provide an example hand where 4C is much more effective than bidding 1S (art GF) and then clubs (jumping to 4C, if need be!). I can easily provide hands for you where the opposite is true.

4414 is certainly possible

Firstly, I think you would find that unlike you or I, most who post here would play 1S as natural and not as an agf.

Secondly please do supply such an example.

[rogerclee]

x x KQxxx AKxxxx

 

KQJx KQJx x Qxxx

 

I could've spent more time creating a less contrived example, but here you go.

[brillage]

♥♥♥ Thanks all for your kindly reply ♥♥♥

 

I have learnt 2 from above:

1. 4C is a splinter.

2. but it is not the best bid, because of the waste points in Clubs.

 

Thanks again.

 

I think, I'd better give the hands below:

 

[hv=v=b&n=sakjha753dkj642c8&s=s65hkt42da3caj953]133|200|1♣ Pass 1♦ Pass

1♥ Pass 4♣[/hv]

[Jlall]

Splintering is fine, I don't know what to say about the argument that:

 

"Partner often has wastage in clubs...ergo we shouldn't splinter."

 

Obv that is nonsensical, it doesn't really matter if he often has wastage in clubs, the point is to describe our hand and find out if he has wastage or not. If he is 75 % to have wastage rather than 25 % that doesn't make splintering better or worse.

[Jlall]

Also we can always bid fourth suit forcing and then raise clubs, even to the four level, if we want, so the argument that things get murky or we have to "go through contortions" to raise clubs is pretty silly. If it were possible that our next bid would be higher than 4C then there may be merit to that, but since we're at the 1 level... lol.

 

It is always going to be better to let partner get a third bid in before we raise clubs anyways, or at the very least it won't hurt. Why would we want to preempt the auction 3 levels when we have a good hand with clubs? There is no rush, and bidding fourth suit forcing before raising is not "a bunch of contortions" it's normal bridge.

 

That is why 4C is obviously a splinter.

 

This thread is pretty lol. Now we will hear the outrage of the hog about how only americans play this way, and obv all australians play 4C as natural and forcing! This is an area where it is easy to demonstrate logically which way (of these 2 possibilities) is superior to play. The Hog despite what he'll tell you is also not an authority on bidding in Australia, he just kinda makes stuff up.

 

 

 

People are welcome to play an inferior method, and say that not 100 % of the world plays the superior way because they and their intermediate friends don't play that way, but it doesn't really mean much. I guess if you don't know 4th suit forcing then having a way to force in clubs immediately would be useful.

[the hog]

"That is why 4C is obviously a splinter."

 

In your partnerships.

 

"This thread is pretty lol. Now we will hear the outrage of the hog about how only americans play this way, and obv all australians play 4C as natural and forcing! This is an area where it is easy to demonstrate logically which way (of these 2 possibilities) is superior to play. The Hog despite what he'll tell you is also not an authority on bidding in Australia, he just kinda makes stuff up.

 

 

 

People are welcome to play an inferior method, and say that not 100 % of the world plays the superior way because they and their intermediate friends don't play that way, but it doesn't really mean much. I guess if you don't know 4th suit forcing then having a way to force in clubs immediately would be useful."

 

Oh dear oh dear, you do have a huge inferiority complex, don't you? Have you tried therapy? It might help.

[Echognome]

Splinters are standard. The hog and I had a long ugly argument about this in a thread some time ago.

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18627

It's funny reading post from 3 years ago. I started off on one side and then came to my senses.

 

I think my favorite part of that whole thread was "don't call me dude".

[the hog]

Splinters are standard. The hog and I had a long ugly argument about this in a thread some time ago.

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18627

It's funny reading post from 3 years ago. I started off on one side and then came to my senses.

 

I think my favorite part of that whole thread was "don't call me dude".

Yes I agree Gnome; it is a somewhat vulgar term used by functional illiterates, isn't it?