no blame

[helene_t]

I think dbl with the North hand would be terrible. There is no way partner will ever take you for such an extreme hand with a singleton spade.

 

Just bid 2♦. Or 3♥ or 5♦ if you want to try something else.

[MinorKid]

Specific Aces will solve north's problem. However methods in doing that may take it too high.

[gwnn]

YES BUT 4NT IS NOT SPECIFIC ACES

[MinorKid]

I think dbl with the North hand would be terrible. There is no way partner will ever take you for such an extreme hand with a singleton spade.

 

Just bid 2♦. Or 3♥ or 5♦ if you want to try something else.

x -> rebid a new suit shows the hand quite simular to a strong one suiter. But if i am south i'd not think north's so extreme.

[MinorKid]

YES BUT 4NT IS NOT SPECIFIC ACES

Then what is 4NT mean?

If it is slammish (28~32 Bal.) why not start with a double?

If it is game both-minor forcing just bid 2NT and raise to game.

[manudude03]

Without discussion, I would assume 4NT to be both minors as well. Showing a more shapely hand than 2NT (something like xx void AQJxx KQTxxx at equal vul).

 

Reminds me of an auction I had at the club with Helene recently.

 

1C-(1S)-P-(2S)

4NT-(P)-5D-AP

 

I got asked if 5♦ shows 1 ace which I had to resist LOL.

 

Anyway, agree that partner doesn't have a 4D bid on this thread.

[hanp]

I would bid 3H as well. There is a lot to be said for showing a strong solid single suiter immediately when you can.

[jillybean]

Wouldnt anyone consider 3♥ (solid minor, asking for a ♥stop) with the North hand?

This is not on the menu, yet B)

[aguahombre]

Wouldnt anyone consider 3♥ (solid minor, asking for a ♥stop) with the North hand?

This is not on the menu, yet B)

3H is one of the few bids you can make up in the middle of an auction, undiscussed, I would think. But then again, maybe partner would mistakenly think "leaping Michaels" :D

[jillybean]

Wouldnt anyone consider 3♥ (solid minor, asking for a ♥stop) with the North hand?

This is not on the menu, yet :blink:

3H is one of the few bids you can make up in the middle of an auction, undiscussed, I would think. But then again, maybe partner would mistakenly think "leaping Michaels" :D

Perhaps with my r/l partner I would but with my typical, pickup, bbo expert, that's where I would be playing. <_<

[jillybean]

If we were playing (1♥) 3♥ as solid minor, asking for stopper, partner would bid 4♣ without a stopper, is 4♦ then nf ?

[aguahombre]

If we were playing (1♥) 3♥ as solid minor, asking for stopper, partner would bid 4♣ without a stopper,  is 4♦ then nf ?

Maybe, But the companion hand with two bullets in the black suits, a stiff heart, and four card support for diamonds -- knows that his/her partner has a solid diamond suit, and will do something slammish, not bid 4C.

 

Actually, 4C followed by 4S over the 4D rebid would get the message across, making 4c a cue in retrospect. then the king of clubs can be cue'd.

[jillybean]

Yes, thanks. In general, (1♥):3♥ 4♣:4♦ would be highly encouraging but nf.

[aguahombre]

Yes, thanks. In general, 1♥:3♥ 4♣:4♦ would be highly encouraging but nf.

exactly...but in this case, the other hand ---knowing that diamonds are trump because of the club ACE ---can use that information to create a cooperative auction. "He knows that I know that he knows....".

[MinorKid]

as North's first overcall

ACOL : 3♦ points 13//17

SAYC : 2♦ points 11+

 

ACOL :

-- [1♥] 3♦ [3♥]

4♥ [x] 4N [-]

5♥ [-] 6♦ AP

 

SAYC :

--- [1♥] 2♦ [3♥]

5♦ [5♥] 6♦ AP

[gwnn]

If it is game both-minor forcing just bid 2NT and raise to game.

You do know that if you use very very low bids, your opponents will have more space and better judgement and will bid to better contracts than normally.

 

For example, take the simple case of

 

1H-(2NT)-?

 

versus

 

1H-(4NT)-?

 

responder gains 9 calls in the first case:

 

3♣ 3♦ 3♥ 3♠ 3NT

4♣ 4♦ 4♥ 4♠

 

Now I could also talk about the Fibonacci series or the Gamma function but it is not really necessary. Suffice it to say, "just bidding 2NT and raising to game" is not good enough for a hand like

 

x

 

KQJxxx

QJTxxx

 

or even the same hand with 65 minors and favourable vulnerability.

 

because intelligent opps do not pass automatically when you bid 2NT. On the contrary, they are quite happy to BID.

[MinorKid]

If it is game both-minor forcing just bid 2NT and raise to game.

You do know that if you use very very low bids, your opponents will have more space and better judgement and will bid to better contracts than normally.

 

For example, take the simple case of

 

1H-(2NT)-?

 

versus

 

1H-(4NT)-?

 

responder gains 9 calls in the first case:

 

3♣ 3♦ 3♥ 3♠ 3NT

4♣ 4♦ 4♥ 4♠

 

Now I could also talk about the Fibonacci series or the Gamma function but it is not really necessary. Suffice it to say, "just bidding 2NT and raising to game" is not good enough for a hand like

 

x

 

KQJxxx

QJTxxx

 

or even the same hand with 65 minors and favourable vulnerability.

 

because intelligent opps do not pass automatically when you bid 2NT. On the contrary, they are quite happy to BID.

I see your point.

North can simply bid 2♦ and then 4NT for RKCB. :)

[gwnn]

I was not talking about this hand. I was talking about your statement that 4NT is specific aces. I told you it wasn't.

 

BTW 2♦ then 4NT is not usually blackwood either, unless partner has shown support.

 

anyway of course responder gains 10 calls and not 9. lol at gwnn

[Fluffy]

Bidding 4♦ is ridicoulous, at this vulnerability it must be a hand that its close to KQJxxxxx 8th and out as many pointed out.

 

With the given hand you can:

 

-Bid 2♦

-Bid 3♥

-Bid 5♦ (I've seen real experts picking this with solid 8 cards nv, it works)

 

 

2♦ is the constructive approach, but leaves opponents space to comunicate, 3♥ is a one shot bid that doesn't make the hand justice, we have 8th card and a king after the opener.

5♦ is maybe too comital, but practical bid

 

 

Double is horrible, you get to show your suit when it is very late, not to mention that 5♦ over 4♠ from partner is intended as a cuebid.

 

 

About the 4NT argument:

 

 

I recently won a large swing against a WC player by bidding 4NT instead of 2NT NV vs Vul with

 

-

xx

KJxxxx

Kxxxx

 

after partner passed and he opened 1♥.

 

He had no bid over 5♣ with

 

Qxxxx

AKQxxx

Ax

-

[helene_t]

3♥ is a one shot bid that doesn't make the hand justice, we have 8th card and a king after the opener.

I don't think 3♥ shows a solid diamond suit and nothing else. With such a hand you just bid 2♦. If p has all three other suits covered and no 4 immediate losers in those suits, he will at least make a game try.

 

3♥ might show this hand. But I think "in principle" it shows stoppers in both black suits, i.e. all p needs to bid 3NT is a heart stopper.

 

Even so, 3♥ may be the most practical bid with this hand.

[MinorKid]

Futher comment on 4NTs

With something like

x

-

AQJxxx

KJxxxx

 

I choose overcalling 2NT.

The reason is the same as the 2♦ in this board.

 

So 4NT is used for smth else.