meaning of this redouble?

[Stephen Tu]

vul/vul, IMPs.

(1♦)-p-(p)-dbl;

(p)-1♠-(dbl [1]) - rdbl[2]

2♣-[3]?

 

[1] takeout, minor oriented.

[2] ??? What hand types should this show?

[3] You are 4=4=2=3 ~6 hcp, do you bid 2♥ here or pass? What's the worst hand you'd bid with?

[gnasher]

Redouble shows extra values without primary support, obviously. What's not obvious is how much extra he needs. In the context of a protective double, I'd guess about 13+.

 

I'd bid 2♥ with the hand you describe, and perhaps a point less.

[aguahombre]

Redouble shows extra values without primary support, obviously.  What's not obvious is how much extra he needs.  In the context of a protective double, I'd guess about 13+.

 

I'd bid 2♥ with the hand you describe, and perhaps a point less.

Yep, I read this auction to mean YOU chose 1S because you were willing to take another bid with further competition. Not sure with a 6 count (3 with subtract-a-king) I would have chosen to do so, but that was apparently your plan.

 

So take another bid in competition. Partner has you covered (13 ish). 2H is just fine.

[Stephen Tu]

Yep, I read this auction to mean YOU chose 1S because you were willing to take another bid with further competition

?? My feeling is that it is routine to always bid 1♠ with this shape when not strong enough to cue bid, because you may be FORCED to take another bid, and 1♠ leaves you much better placed to show the 2nd suit later without driving a level higher. What if partner had cue-bid instead of redoubling? What if LHO had raised diamonds and partner doubled again? Wouldn't you feel better placed with a yarb having bid 1♠ not 1♥?

[gnasher]

My feeling is that it is routine to always bid 1♠ with this shape when not strong enough to cue bid

Me too.

[Jlall]

Cannot add anything to what gnasher said

[Stephen Tu]

So what's the difference between rdbl and cue-bid here? And strong NT hands would just bid 1nt at this point?

[gnasher]

Maybe a cue-bid, as the more committal action. is either stronger or more offensively oriented?

[Fluffy]

redouble seems to ask for penalties, with 3 clubs I'd be worried about giving up a decent penalty even at the 2 level, but they seem to ahve a decent escape in diamonds anyway. So 2♥ seems ok

[jdonn]

Extras with 3 spades, but I believe extras is more like 15+ not 13+.

[aguahombre]

Extras with 3 spades, but I believe extras is more like 15+ not 13+.

If the double were in direct seat, I would agree the subsequent redouble would be stronger than 13+ (15/16+), but short of "double and then cue". After the balancing double, 13+ (overbidding by 3) seems about right.

[jdonn]

Yes I understood this was balancing seat, as you might have noticed since 15 is not enough for such a double when the original double was in direct seat. Did you consider that partner didn't overcall and didn't jump so if you have 13 or 14 (or 15?) with 3 card support you don't have game anyway?

[mikeh]

Extras with 3 spades, but I believe extras is more like 15+ not 13+.

agreed....a good 15 or more for me...but the 3 card spade suit is 100%

[Fluffy]

so for you balanced 20 with 2 spades won't redouble?

[jdonn]

You bid notrump or cuebid. :)

[Fluffy]

but you miss some juiciy penalties

[jdonn]

That happens sometimes when you describe your hand. Kind of like when you play takeout doubles you miss some juicy penalties. But if double is random as to the length in partner's suit then how can he know what to do any time you don't have a juicy penalty?

[Stephen Tu]

so for you balanced 20 with 2 spades won't redouble?

Doesn't balanced 20 just balance with 2nt instead of double? What range is 2nt balancing over a minor? (I think it's around 18-20, +/- a point depending on agreements).

 

In real life partner had a 3334 19 and misbid IMO; she also thought that 1s + the free 2h promised a fifth spade which got us in further trouble.

[aguahombre]

Yes I understood this was balancing seat, as you might have noticed since 15 is not enough for such a double when the original double was in direct seat. Did you consider that partner didn't overcall and didn't jump so if you have 13 or 14 (or 15?) with 3 card support you don't have game anyway?

I think you meant "such a redouble", not "double".

 

Of the set of hands with 3-card support and doubt about trump which got a 1S response to its balancing double:

Pass would be the weakest

Redouble (as here) would be next.

Then comes a cue, etc.

 

That does not mean the redouble needs to be only used with hands with a high likelihood of game our way. It just seems to be the proper way of competing. Partner --who has subtracted the 3 points you get to overbid upon --could have as much as 10 HCP, and still might only be 4-4 in the majors if he has 4 hearts (prepared 1S).

[jdonn]

That does not mean the redouble needs to be only used with hands with a high likelihood of game our way. It just seems to be the proper way of competing. Partner --who has subtracted the 3 points you get to overbid upon --could have as much as 10 HCP, and still might only be 4-4 in the majors if he has 4 hearts (prepared 1S).

I don't know how you reach your conclusion from this logic. If partner is 4-4 in the majors with a 10 count he won't pass if we pass, and we still don't have game with a balanced 13. So what did the redouble gain us? I guess what I don't understand is what you mean by "the proper way of competing." You feel better having shown 13+ rather than 7-14 or something when you reach the same contract?

[aguahombre]

That does not mean the redouble needs to be only used with hands with a high likelihood of game our way. It just seems to be the proper way of competing. Partner --who has subtracted the 3 points you get to overbid upon --could have as much as 10 HCP, and still might only be 4-4 in the majors if he has 4 hearts (prepared 1S).

I don't know how you reach your conclusion from this logic. If partner is 4-4 in the majors with a 10 count he won't pass if we pass, and we still don't have game with a balanced 13. So what did the redouble gain us? I guess what I don't understand is what you mean by "the proper way of competing." You feel better having shown 13+ rather than 7-14 or something when you reach the same contract?

instead of targeting hands where it doesn't matter what you do for the sake of being contrary, think of this hand, and partner not being able to bid again at the two-level at all unless he knows you have better than the 9-12 minimum balancing double with or without 3 or 4 card support for the first try (spades). He now knows with the redouble two things he didn't know before.

 

Yes, I feel more comfortable knowing what partner has in competitive auctions than I do just showing a wide range and not helping out. Yes, I feel more comfortable having shown 13-15 ish than I do having shown 9 to 15.

[jdonn]

I didn't target anything, I mentioned the very hand you brought up. If partner is too weak to bid again and I don't have a fit for him then pardon me for not seeing what I'm missing. He might not be 4-4 you know, he might be 4-less than 4!