splinters not allowed?

[manudude03]

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

How do you best handle key card asking if you have a void?  In cue bidding I take it you show first and second round controls in that suit (or do you require extra trump length to do so)?

When you find you are missing an ace after doing blackwood, you don't ask for kings. As for the issue of whether you could be missing AK, cuebidding 1st/2nd round controls will tell you if this is the case. If partner bypasses it, he doesn't have it. Easy game. Unless specifically agreed otherwise, asking for kings shows interest in playing in grand (and confirms all aces).

 

With regards to a void. You can either just keep cuebidding even if it takes you past 4NT, play a convention called Exclusion Keycard Blackwood, or if you know for certain whether partner has the ace or not in your void, you can use 4NT anyway and know what he will be showing.

 

p.s the problem with distribution points is that no-one can give a good value for it, sometimes singletons are bad, others they are great.

[bab9]

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

How do you best handle key card asking if you have a void?  In cue bidding I take it you show first and second round controls in that suit (or do you require extra trump length to do so)?

When you find you are missing an ace after doing blackwood, you don't ask for kings.

 

helene_t indicated that if you are missing only 1 key card you should always bid slam. Are you suggesting that you jump straight to slam without king asking? Or that by the time you key card ask, you should already have a good idea of the controls in partners hand?

 

As for the issue of whether you could be missing AK, cuebidding 1st/2nd round controls will tell you if this is the case. If partner bypasses it, he doesn't have it. Easy game. Unless specifically agreed otherwise, asking for kings shows interest in playing in grand (and confirms all aces).

 

Does cue bidding of this nature always start at the 4 level? How do you identify a cue bid from a natural bid if there has been bidding at the 3 level?

 

p.s the problem with distribution points is that no-one can give a good value for it, sometimes singletons are bad, others they are great.

 

Not heard of singletons being bad before. The only thing I can think of is if you have a king as the singleton. Can you elaborate?

[helene_t]

helene_t indicated that if you are missing only 1 key card you should always bid slam.  Are you suggesting that you jump straight to slam without king asking?  Or that by the time you key card ask, you should already have a good idea of the controls in partners hand?

Yes. You only ask for keycards if the number of key cards is the only thing you need to know. That is because you ask with 4NT so after you get the answer there is no room for further exploration below the 5-level of the trump suit. So if you need to know more than whether you are missing two keycards, asking for keycards is not the right thing to do.

 

In the hand of this thread, a 3♠ splinter may allow us to bid a good slam missing ♠K and a keycard, while avoiding a bad slam missing a minor suit king and a keycard. This is because 3♠ tells partner that minor suit honours are valuable while spade honours are less valuable.

 

I suppose if you ask for keycards with 4♣ you could cuebid after having heard the answer. But I doubt you will find any text books that describe such an approach. Rather, Gerber is a convention that allows you to ask for aces (or keycards?) in a situation where you don't need to do cuebidding and 4NT would be quantitative. For example directly after partner's 1NT opening.

 

Does cue bidding of this nature always start at the 4 level?  How do you identify a cue bid from a natural bid if there has been bidding at the 3 level?

 

Cuebidding can start with 3♠ after partner has set trumps with a 3♥ bid. Otherwise, it generally starts at the 4-level.

[mikeh]

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

The answer to this concern about being off an AK is simple: never, ever ask for Aces unless you know that the partnership has at least 2nd round control of every side suit.

 

This can be done by looking at your hand and seeing that you cown these controls or by cue-bidding before (or instead of) asking for keycards.

 

If you follow expert bridge, you will only rarely see exceptions to this approach and they will be on auctions where the partnership has announced so much power (or the opps bidding leads to a strong inference that partner is short in their suit) that the chances of being off AK are very, very small.

 

It seems that you play in a club with no strong players so cannot expect to learn how to bid properly through playing there.This forum is an excellent resource, but I would suggest joining the BIL sextion on BBO and/or buying some books on modern bidding..they are easily available over the internet.

 

Of course, if you want to bid well at your club, you need to find at least one partner also interested in learning.

 

Good luck.

[Jlall]

I would most certainly not miss slam after a splinter with KQx Qxxxx Axx xx.

What, really? 4D-4H-p seems very normal if you start with a splinter.

[jdonn]

I would most certainly not miss slam after a splinter with KQx Qxxxx Axx xx.

What, really? 4D-4H-p seems very normal if you start with a splinter.

That seems like pretty bad evaluation. Responder can almost even bid keycard after the splinter. Write down a bunch of hands for opener. The ones missing 1 keycard are usually good slams or at worst on a club/heart finesse, and the ones missing 2 keycards are almost always safe at 5. The fifth heart and doubleton club are big and although the spades are opposite shortness it's still better than not having them.

[Jlall]

x AJxx KQx AQJxx is not safe at the 5 level.

 

x AKxx KQx AJxxx will get you to a 0 % slam off 1 keycard.

 

etc etc. Driving seems pretty terrible by responder. If you are off the spade ace you're probably gonna need solid clubs + solid trumps, or solid trumps + very good in both minors. With those partner can bid keycard himself over a cuebid.

 

Making 2 moves is possible but I don't know if it's necessary, partner will know AK of trumps and AKQxx+ of clubs is the nuts opposite a diamond cuebid, and also that AK of hearts, DK, CAK is the nuts. I cannot imagine him signing off with x AKxx Kxx AKxxx or better, or with x AKxx xxx AKQJx or better.

 

Our hand is not that much different in value for slam purposes than xxx Qxxxx Axx xx which is also obviously worth a cuebid, but not really worth a move past that imo.

[jdonn]

Our hand is almost the same as xxx Qxxxx Axx xx only if you always give opener KQx of diamonds. If he has almost any other diamond holding our spades take on more value and his value is more useful in clubs or hearts. Yes x AKxx KQx AJxxx is bad but x AKxx xxx AKJxx is a decent slam (great on 2-2 hearts, often makes on 3-1 hearts, and they might even lead a spade) so I think we are definitely worth another try.

 

I say bid 5♥ over 4♥ and partner can even tell the difference. We can't have ace of spades or second round control in clubs since we didn't cuebid them so we must have what he is missing in trumps, the diamond ace, and either extra trump length or spade values (probably both) to be worth this bid. He will be able to tell that x AKxx KQx AJxxx doesn't make slam.

[bab9]

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

The answer to this concern about being off an AK is simple: never, ever ask for Aces unless you know that the partnership has at least 2nd round control of every side suit.

 

This can be done by looking at your hand and seeing that you cown these controls or by cue-bidding before (or instead of) asking for keycards.

 

I was under the impression that cue bidding always showed first round controls first. If the suit is then rebid it would show second round controls. Thus you will not know if you had 2nd round controls in every side suit before asking for first round controls. As the issue may be my understanding of cue bidding, can you recommend any books on the subject?

 

It seems that you play in a club with no strong players so cannot expect to learn how to bid properly through playing there.This forum is an excellent resource, but

 

Fair comment. One thing I have noticed at the club is the bidding inconsistency with some players (even those with higher rankings than myself). Do you have any guidence as to how not to pick up bad habits as a result of playing against inconsistent bidders?

 

I would suggest joining the BIL sextion on BBO and/or buying some books on modern bidding..they are easily available over the internet.

 

Which authors would you recommend?

 

 

Of course, if you want to bid well at your club, you need to find at least one partner also interested in learning.

 

Good luck.

 

My latest partner has shown some interest in learning, having only just introduced mutli-2's into our system.

[aguahombre]

Bab: IMO, bringing a learner along is hampered by adding new gadgets. At the stage you seem to be describing, I would recommend hammering in the follow-ups and the proper times to use existing methods.

 

Wouldn't even consider adding something new unless it fills a gaping hole in existing methods, and multi --while certainly viable ---doesn't do that. It just adds a new load to other bids.

[MinorKid]

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

The answer to this concern about being off an AK is simple: never, ever ask for Aces unless you know that the partnership has at least 2nd round control of every side suit.

 

This can be done by looking at your hand and seeing that you cown these controls or by cue-bidding before (or instead of) asking for keycards.

 

If you follow expert bridge, you will only rarely see exceptions to this approach and they will be on auctions where the partnership has announced so much power (or the opps bidding leads to a strong inference that partner is short in their suit) that the chances of being off AK are very, very small.

 

It seems that you play in a club with no strong players so cannot expect to learn how to bid properly through playing there.This forum is an excellent resource, but I would suggest joining the BIL sextion on BBO and/or buying some books on modern bidding..they are easily available over the internet.

 

Of course, if you want to bid well at your club, you need to find at least one partner also interested in learning.

 

Good luck.

What if the opps don't lead the weak and a side suit able to take discard?

 

We win a swing.

[manudude03]

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

The answer to this concern about being off an AK is simple: never, ever ask for Aces unless you know that the partnership has at least 2nd round control of every side suit.

 

This can be done by looking at your hand and seeing that you cown these controls or by cue-bidding before (or instead of) asking for keycards.

 

If you follow expert bridge, you will only rarely see exceptions to this approach and they will be on auctions where the partnership has announced so much power (or the opps bidding leads to a strong inference that partner is short in their suit) that the chances of being off AK are very, very small.

 

It seems that you play in a club with no strong players so cannot expect to learn how to bid properly through playing there.This forum is an excellent resource, but I would suggest joining the BIL sextion on BBO and/or buying some books on modern bidding..they are easily available over the internet.

 

Of course, if you want to bid well at your club, you need to find at least one partner also interested in learning.

 

Good luck.

What if the opps don't lead the weak and a side suit able to take discard?

 

We win a swing.

Sure, it could work, and maybe even advisable if you are in real need of imps.

 

More likely than not, they'll find the right lead though (lead aggressive vs small slam). Sometimes the opening leader is sitting with that AK! Even if you are still alive after trick 2, you will still occasionally find yourself with no way of getting rid of those losers anyway. Any time either of those occur, you've just lost the same swing.