splinters not allowed?

[aguahombre]

Definitely don't splinter since you play those as NF ;)

Haha, or stop playing with pickup experts.

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq9852hk8dktckj64&s=sakj64hjda975cqt9]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♠    Pass  4♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

Interesting hand to play and only down 4 <_<

On this one, you should have a rule not to splinter with a stiff Jack, in case partner leaves it in. B)

[Cyberyeti]

Definitely don't splinter since you play those as NF ;)

Haha, or stop playing with pickup experts.

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq9852hk8dktckj64&s=sakj64hjda975cqt9]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♠    Pass  4♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

Interesting hand to play and only down 4 :)

A friend played in a 1-0 fit on this auction.

 

Playing standard methods, first choice 3♠, second choice 4♠.

 

I'm glad I play what I do, as I rebid 2N (GF unbalanced) and over the 3♣ relay, bid 4♥ as a 1435 game force.

[chasetb]

http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/Rule26Schogger.html

 

The reason many don't splinter with an Ace is because of that rule there. I am a part of "Don't splinter with an Ace", but that is because my partner and I play lebensohl over a reverse (responder with a bare mininum bids 2NT as a relay to 3♣). I reverse to see partner's response, then I can choose to jump to 4♥ to play, or cuebid, or something else. Even if I don't have that fancy stuff, I would still bid 2♦ and then jump to 4♥ if partner doesn't show 11+ points on his/her rebid.

[jillybean]

http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/Rule26Schogger.html

 

The reason many don't splinter with an Ace is because of that rule there.  I am a part of "Don't splinter with an Ace", but that is because my partner and I play lebensohl over a reverse (responder with a bare mininum bids 2NT as a relay to 3♣).  I reverse to see partner's response, then I can choose to jump to 4♥ to play, or cuebid, or something else.  Even if I don't have that fancy stuff, I would still bid 2♦ and then jump to 4♥ if partner doesn't show 11+ points on his/her rebid.

So, you object to a splinter but recommend reversing into ♦'s with QT6?

[nige1]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sahak62dqt6ckq864]133|100|Scoring: MP

(P) 1♣ (P) 1♥

(P) ?

Do you have any methods to bid this?[/hv]

IMO, if splinters are off the menu, then 3♠ (cue-bid agreeing ♥) = 10, 4♥ = 7.

Splinters are on the menu, but not with an Ace. So 3♠ is out under those rules and 4♥ makes me ill.

If partner has systemic objections to both 3♠ and 4♥ with this hand, then you are backed into a corner. If you must reverse into 2♦, then you need a clear agreement about how to settle in ♥, when partner raises ♦, or prefers ♣ enthusiastically.

[bab9]

Why not straight into Blackwood or Gerber (depends on if you play 4♣ after a 1♣ opening as being natural or Gerber)?

 

If you play 4♣ as Gerber, you are able to ask for controls and still stop in 4♥ (if partner bids 4♠ you go looking for slam as they have the missing Aces).

lol

I must have missed the joke. Can you elaborate?

[aguahombre]

Why not straight into Blackwood or Gerber (depends on if you play 4♣ after a 1♣ opening as being natural or Gerber)?

 

If you play 4♣ as Gerber, you are able to ask for controls and still stop in 4♥ (if partner bids 4♠ you go looking for slam as they have the missing Aces).

lol

I must have missed the joke. Can you elaborate?

Sorry, the LOL was inappropriate. I should have stated that there are very few hands where partner responds 1/1 and I would lauch directly into blackwood without eliciting further cooperation. This hand, with a side qTX violates another rule I like about when to ask for aces. I don't have first or second round control of all side suits, and haven't inquired as to whether partner does.

 

A third reason would be I don't know what to do with the answer, no matter how many he shows.

[Codo]

I think that partner should have no problem after a 4♥ bid. I agree with Mike that no bid here tells the whole story. But I disagree that 3 ♠ is the smallest disortion.

[jdonn]

How is 3♠ a distortion at all? It will accomplish its goal. If partner has xxx Qxxxx KJx Ax you want to be in slam. If partner has KJx Qxxxx xxx Ax then it's too risky to go higher than 4. This is what splinter's are for.

 

The hand where you can argue against splintering on singleton ace is more like A AQxx Axx Kxxxx because Kxx or KQx of spades or diamonds is probably just as good. But when the shorter side suit is weak then it makes perfect sense to splinter on the singleton ace and frankly I think the arguments against it have been totally unconvincing.

[Codo]

If partner has your example hand, he will reach slam after 4 ♥ anyway.

 

If partner has KQx, Qxxxx,Axx,xx you may miss slam after your splinter but not after 4 ♥.

[jdonn]

If partner has your example hand, he will reach slam after 4 ♥ anyway.

You mean the xxx Qxxxx KJx Ax? So you admit you just get too high and often go down with KJx Qxxxx xxx Ax?

 

I would most certainly not miss slam after a splinter with KQx Qxxxx Axx xx. If opener had the same shape as the hand in this thread but with the spade ace in clubs then you still want to be in slam. So I still see no good argument, sorry.

[bab9]

Why not straight into Blackwood or Gerber (depends on if you play 4♣ after a 1♣ opening as being natural or Gerber)?

 

If you play 4♣ as Gerber, you are able to ask for controls and still stop in 4♥ (if partner bids 4♠ you go looking for slam as they have the missing Aces).

lol

I must have missed the joke. Can you elaborate?

Sorry, the LOL was inappropriate. I should have stated that there are very few hands where partner responds 1/1 and I would lauch directly into blackwood without eliciting further cooperation. This hand, with a side qTX violates another rule I like about when to ask for aces. I don't have first or second round control of all side suits, and haven't inquired as to whether partner does.

 

A third reason would be I don't know what to do with the answer, no matter how many he shows.

My thought was to use gerber to show partner I have a much better hand than 4♥ (could be I missed judged the strength of the hand). I have seen and played the 1/1 into gerber a couple of times (could be that as relative beginners we are using conventions inappropriately).

 

What method / convention do you use to ask for controls in the side suits?

 

My thoughts were if partner responses 4♠ (still only showing 8 HCP), I would be happy to stop in 5♥ and leave it up to partner if he has extra value to put it to 6♥.

[mikeh]

Bab: you are using gerber inappropriately B) 1x 1M 4♣ when x is not clubs, is a splinter. When x is clubs, many play the convention with no name...4♣ shows a good hand with 6 clubs and 4 card support.

 

Gerber (which is a better convention than most here would assert) is typically used only directly over a notrump bid...thus 1N 4♣ or 2N 4♣. It is not used, by advanced or expert players, over a suit bid...splinters and other uses are far more valuable.

[bab9]

Bab: you are using gerber inappropriately B)  1x 1M 4♣ when x is not clubs, is a splinter. When x is clubs, many play the convention with no name...4♣ shows a good hand with 6 clubs and 4 card support.

 

Gerber (which is a better convention than most here would assert) is typically used only directly over a notrump bid...thus 1N 4♣ or 2N 4♣. It is not used, by advanced or expert players, over a suit bid...splinters and other uses are far more valuable.

At the club where I learnt, almost nobody played splinters.

 

Would you use gerber after a suit fit has been established? If not, what other control conventions would you use?

 

Is a double jump shift always a splinter?

 

I am currently playing Roman Key Card Gerber. Is there a better version of Gerber?

[helene_t]

Bab, how are you going to find out if you have slam if partner responds one keycard? If all partner has is an ace and, say, ♠Q, then 5♥ is too much. Then again, if all partner is missing is an ace then of course slam is good.

 

Better describe you own hand and let partner decide whether to explore slam or not. Then you can avoid the 5-level if partner has a minimum, even if he has an ace.

 

Ace (or keycard) asking can only be used to find out if you are missing two aces after you have found out that you have enough general values (or the hands fit well enough) for slam. It cannot be used to find out if you have enough values for slam.

 

If you want an asking bid to find out about general slam values, then ask for the number of controls (where an ace is 2 controls, a king one control).

[P_Marlowe]

At the club where I learnt, almost nobody played splinters.

 

Would you use gerber after a suit fit has been established?  If not, what other control conventions would you use?

 

Is a double jump shift always a splinter?

 

I am currently playing Roman Key Card Gerber.  Is there a better version of Gerber?

Hi,

 

#1 Splinters are common, so your club would be an exception.

A generic definition / rule to decide, if a bid is a splinter bid is:

If bidding the suit one level lower would have been forcing,

than the bid is a splinter.

From this followes

a) every double jump shift is a splinter

b) Every jump shift in a game forcing auction is a splinter, e.g.

2C - 2S

4H

c) lots of peoble play 3H in the sequence

1D - 1S

3H

as a splinter, since bidding hearts one level lower, i.e. bidding

2H would be forcing, since 2H is a reverse

d) A jump shift after a 2/1 response to an opening is a splinter, e.g.

1H - 2C

3S

To a certain degree this is falls under c), but even if peoble would

play 3H in c) as natural and GF (old fashioned), they would play 3S

as a splinter.

 

#2 Using Gerber after a suit fit has been established eliminates the

option to make a 4C cue bid.

One main reasons for starting Cue bidding seq. are discovering,

if the partnership is missing a 2nd control in a suit, i.e. have opponents

the possibility to cask AK in a suit, Key card asks wont answer this

question.

The 2nd reason for starting Cue bidding seq. is to find out, if the honors

in both hands fit, this allowes to discover slams, where the combined

HCP strength is consderable lower than 32/33HCP, without cues you

can basically only find slams, which are on, because you have 23/33+.

 

#3 Are you sure, that other control conventions are more popular in your

club?

 

#4 If you play Roman Key Card Gerber, than this is certainly a sensible

version of Gerber.

Lots of peoble play Minorwood, i.e. 4 of a minor is KC ask, if a minor

suit has been found, i.e. at least with clubs as trumps, 4C would be

KC asking, i.e. in this situation you could call Minorwood - Gerber.

I prefer to play 4C as natural, but my guess is, that at least in my

Germany, this would be a minority view. (*)

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: (*) Hopefully you dont take this as a general endorsement of Gerber in

sitatuations, where a suit fit has been established.

[bab9]

Bab, how are you going to find out if you have slam if partner responds one keycard? If all partner has is an ace and, say, ♠Q, then 5♥ is too much. Then again, if all partner is missing is an ace then of course slam is good.

 

Better describe you own hand and let partner decide whether to explore slam or not. Then you can avoid the 5-level if partner has a minimum, even if he has an ace.

 

Ace (or keycard) asking can only be used to find out if you are missing two aces after you have found out that you have enough general values (or the hands fit well enough) for slam. It cannot be used to find out if you have enough values for slam.

 

If you want an asking bid to find out about general slam values, then ask for the number of controls (where an ace is 2 controls, a king one control).

helene_t, if partner responses with one key card their response to 4♣ will be 4♥ in the system I play (0314). Thus able to leave the contract in 4♥. Different story if 4NTs is used - I rarely use 4NT. I can see from the responses that I have been using 4♣ inappropriately.

 

I was taught that if you do not have all the aces don't even think about slam.

 

How do you ask your partner for their number of controls?

 

If you wait for enough general values, how do you find slams with less than 30HCP?

[bab9]

At the club where I learnt, almost nobody played splinters.

 

Would you use gerber after a suit fit has been established?  If not, what other control conventions would you use?

 

Is a double jump shift always a splinter?

 

I am currently playing Roman Key Card Gerber.  Is there a better version of Gerber?

Hi,

 

#1 Splinters are common, so your club would be an exception.

 

There are a large number of conventions not played at my ex-club. It may be because splinters are not taught at the bridge lessons.

 

    A generic definition / rule to decide, if a bid is a splinter bid is:

    If bidding the suit one level lower would have been forcing,

    than the bid is a splinter.

    From this followes

    a) every double jump shift is a splinter

    ;) Every jump shift in a game forcing auction is a splinter, e.g.

        2C - 2S

        4H       

    c) lots of peoble play 3H in the sequence

        1D - 1S

        3H

        as a splinter, since bidding hearts one level lower, i.e. bidding

        2H would be forcing, since 2H is a reverse

    d) A jump shift after a 2/1 response to an opening is a splinter, e.g.

        1H - 2C

        3S 

        To a certain degree this is falls under c), but even if peoble would

        play 3H in c) as natural and GF (old fashioned), they would play 3S

        as a splinter.

 

Thanks. It seems I had a slight misunderstanding on how to show splinters. When you show a splinter, is it GF?

 

#2 Using Gerber after a suit fit has been established eliminates the

    option to make a 4C cue bid.

    One main reasons for starting Cue bidding seq. are discovering,

    if the partnership is missing a 2nd control in a suit, i.e. have opponents

    the possibility to cask AK in a suit, Key card asks wont answer this

    question.

 

I have only seen this cue bidding sequence used once at either club I've played (both in Queensland Australia) - my partner at the time was highly confused.

 

One question, I was lead to believe the purpose of the slam conventions was not only to determine the necessary controls, but to also determine if it is better to play in NTs. If when showing controls via the cue bids you show a void as a first and second round control, how do you ensure that partner does not put the contract into NT if they are missing the ace and king?

 

    The 2nd reason for starting Cue bidding seq. is to find out, if the honors

    in both hands fit, this allowes to discover slams, where the combined

    HCP strength is consderable lower than 32/33HCP, without cues you

    can basically only find slams, which are on, because you have 23/33+.

 

Can you give some guidence as to what you require to have a 23HCP slam?

 

#3 Are you sure, that other control conventions are more popular in your

    club?

 

Most players at the club used a step response to show aces following . A lot of players did not worry about slam unless they had 35+ HCP. And then a lot were flukes (being pushed into slam).

 

#4 If you play Roman Key Card Gerber, than this is certainly a sensible

    version of Gerber.

    Lots of peoble play Minorwood, i.e. 4 of a minor is KC ask, if a minor

    suit has been found, i.e. at least with clubs as trumps, 4C would be

    KC asking, i.e. in this situation you could call Minorwood - Gerber.

    I prefer to play 4C as natural, but my guess is, that at least in my

    Germany, this would be a minority view. (*)   

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: (*) Hopefully you dont take this as a general endorsement of Gerber in

      sitatuations, where a suit fit has been established.

 

So when a suit fit has been found, are you meant to use Blackwood?

[manudude03]

I'm not going to go into great length about requirements for slam. Gerber and Blackwood are slam prevention conventions (to stay out of the bad slams) rather than slam investigaion (to find the good slams). As others have stated, this means that these should only be used if you have very good reason to believe 12 tricks are there. Without mentioning the alternatives, there are very few hands that would want to gerber after a 1/1 response, and even then you shouldn't be asking without 5 level safety since the only hands you'd want to ask will be when you have 2 clear-cut losers and nothing else and in nearly all of those you would be opening 2♣ anyway. The typical 1x-1y-(ace ask) hand it something like KQJx A AKQJxxx x.

 

To put it another way, suppose you have KQJx AJx AQJTx x the auction:

1D-1S

4C-4H

 

where 4C was gerber. What do you know about partner's hand? He has 1 ace and at least 6 points, you don't know about his shape and you don't know if he has 6 points or 16. Sign off with 1 missing? Tough, partner has Axxxx KQx Kx xxx and you've just missed a laydown slam. Bid slam? Partner comes up with xxxx Qxx xxx KQx. Ask for kings? You have a similar dilemma if partner shows 2 kings.

 

Let's look at the other possibility with this hand and let 4C be a splinter. Partner can then cuebid 4♦ over 4♣ and now you know the diamonds are solid and partner doesn't have a bare 6 count. Now you can safely ask for aces via 4NT and reach slam when it's right. You won't necessarily make them all, but that attitude (must not go down with lots of points) does not go far in terms of winning bridge.

 

If you do some searching in the forums, there are dozens of Assign the Blame hands where one hand decided not to show a key feature which would have provided the key needed for slam. It doesn't even take anything that extraordinary to have a 23 HCP slam, an example below.

 

AKxxx x Axx KJxx

Qxxxx xxxx x AQx

 

Note that if spades are 2-1, even the ♣J is wasted.

 

Generally speaking, slam depends on 4 things:

General values

Degree of trump fit

Fitting honours

Fitting shape

 

The idea of needing 33 HCP for slams is ridiculous* if you think about it for a minute. How many HCP do you have if you have a 13 card suit? I wish the defence luck on beating grand in that suit.

 

*It is a good idea to aim for 33 HCP for 6NT, but again, it can be made with less.

 

As a final note, the way to improve your slam bidding is to go down in a few. You will learn why a lighter slam wasn't good or why it was great.

[P_Marlowe]

     The 2nd reason for starting Cue bidding seq. is to find out, if the honors

     in both hands fit, this allowes to discover slams, where the combined

     HCP strength is consderable lower than 32/33HCP, without cues you

     can basically only find slams, which are on, because you have 23/33+.

 

Can you give some guidence as to what you require to have a 23HCP slam?

Sry - typing error it should have been 32/33+ instead of 23/33+,

cues allow you to find slam, where the combined HCP strength is

lower, but are on, because the hands mesh well, using only KC will

help you with slams which have 32/33+.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

#4 If you play Roman Key Card Gerber, than this is certainly a sensible

     version of Gerber.

     Lots of peoble play Minorwood, i.e. 4 of a minor is KC ask, if a minor

     suit has been found, i.e. at least with clubs as trumps, 4C would be

     KC asking, i.e. in this situation you could call Minorwood - Gerber.

     I prefer to play 4C as natural, but my guess is, that at least in my

     Germany, this would be a minority view. (*)    

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: (*) Hopefully you dont take this as a general endorsement of Gerber in

      sitatuations, where a suit fit has been established.

 

So when a suit fit has been found, are you meant to use Blackwood?

Personally I only use 4NT as KC ask, if a suit fit has been

established, that works reasonably well, but as I said, if

you have discovered a minor suit fit, this is a minor position,

at least in Germany - it basically forces you to have cue

bidding auctions, which will train your partnership getting

used to cue bidding.

 

I would also not bother with other KC conventions, like

Kickback, Voidwood and so on, using 4NT only is sufficient.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[chasetb]

If you do some searching in the forums, there are dozens of Assign the Blame hands where one hand decided not to show a key feature which would have provided the key needed for slam. It doesn't even take anything that extraordinary to have a 23 HCP slam, an example below.

 

AKxxx x Axx KJxx

Qxxxx xxxx x AQx

 

Note that if spades are 2-1, even the ♣J is wasted.

 

Generally speaking, slam depends on 4 things:

General values

Degree of trump fit

Fitting honours

Fitting shape

 

The idea of needing 33 HCP for slams is ridiculous* if you think about it for a minute. How many HCP do you have if you have a 13 card suit? I wish the defence luck on beating grand in that suit.

 

*It is a good idea to aim for 33 HCP for 6NT, but again, it can be made with less.

I only quoted the really important parts. People do NOT say you need 33 HCP for a slam in a suit, they say 33 points (HCP + distribution). However, the rest of the quote is completely accurate. In your example hand, I evaluate it to 31 points (4 points each for the 2 singletons), and because of the concentration of honors, I give an extra point for each suit to make it 33. And 6♠ is laydown.

[jdonn]

If you do some searching in the forums, there are dozens of Assign the Blame hands where one hand decided not to show a key feature which would have provided the key needed for slam. It doesn't even take anything that extraordinary to have a 23 HCP slam, an example below.

 

AKxxx x Axx KJxx

Qxxxx xxxx x AQx

 

Note that if spades are 2-1, even the ♣J is wasted.

 

Generally speaking, slam depends on 4 things:

General values

Degree of trump fit

Fitting honours

Fitting shape

 

The idea of needing 33 HCP for slams is ridiculous* if you think about it for a minute. How many HCP do you have if you have a 13 card suit? I wish the defence luck on beating grand in that suit.

 

*It is a good idea to aim for 33 HCP for 6NT, but again, it can be made with less.

I only quoted the really important parts. People do NOT say you need 33 HCP for a slam in a suit, they say 33 points (HCP + distribution). However, the rest of the quote is completely accurate. In your example hand, I evaluate it to 31 points (4 points each for the 2 singletons), and because of the concentration of honors, I give an extra point for each suit to make it 33. And 6♠ is laydown.

And if it were

 

AKxxx x Axx KJxx

Qxxxx AQx xxxx x

 

It's still 33 points for the same reasons?

 

AKxxx x Axx KQJx

QJxxx AQx Qxxx x

 

So that's 38?

[helene_t]

I was taught that if you do not have all the aces don't even think about slam.

This is very wrong. There are plenty of good slams to be bid with one missing ace. Here, partner has just made a simple response at the 1-level. He could have a very good hand. If you sign off with one missing ace you could play 4♥ with 36 combined points!

 

The whole purpose of keycard asking is to find out if you are missing two keycards. With one missing keycard you always bid slam, since you decided to ask for keycards because you knew that slam would be good if you don't miss two keycards. If that were not the case then your hand was not suitable for keycard asking.

 

If you wait for enough general values, how do you find slams with less than 30HCP?

 

You don't.

 

You have to find out if the hands fit well. Show your distribution as well as your general strength. Partner will recognize when the hands fit well - if you have a double fit, or if he has xxx opposite your singleton.

 

If the hands do not fit well, then you need some 32/33 points.

 

Remember, as opener you are one step ahead of partner in terms of describing your hand. That means that partner is generally in a better position to make slam decisions than you are.

 

So you should rarely ask questions as opener. Describe your hand. Partner will know if the hands fit well enough and/or have enough combined values for slam. If so, he may ask for keycards.

 

Here, the question is whether a 4♥ rebid (showing a (semi)-balanced 19-count with four hearts) or a 3♠ rebid (showing a singleton spade and four hearts and enough strength for 4♥), makes it easier for partner to assess whether slam is good.

 

The exception is when partner makes a descriptive bid, such as a limit bid or a jump shift. Then you can sometimes take over the captaincy, ask for keycards (if necessary), and decide whether to bid slam or not.

[bab9]

I was taught that if you do not have all the aces don't even think about slam.

This is very wrong. There are plenty of good slams to be bid with one missing ace. Here, partner has just made a simple response at the 1-level. He could have a very good hand. If you sign off with one missing ace you could play 4♥ with 36 combined points!

 

The whole purpose of keycard asking is to find out if you are missing two keycards. With one missing keycard you always bid slam, since you decided to ask for keycards because you knew that slam would be good if you don't miss two keycards. If that were not the case then your hand was not suitable for keycard asking.

 

I except that there are slams available when you are missing 1 ace.

 

I must be missing something. If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card. If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit. Or is this a percentage play? Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

 

How do you best handle key card asking if you have a void? In cue bidding I take it you show first and second round controls in that suit (or do you require extra trump length to do so)?