Perhaps Too Many Options...

[MinorKid]

If slam is on ... are you sure it is in ♥ ?

 

Anybody play fit jump here?

I guess a 4D still has the same meaning, even after the 3S call.

 

With no intervention - 4D would show a 6 carder and the heart fit,

but one usually requires a better suit, AKQxxx.

That is the classical meaning, but there is a approach, which reserves

the 4D bid for 5422 hands, the reason being, that with a 6 card suit

and 4 card support, you have a splinter.

 

The splinter basically gurantees 5diamonds, ... you could be 4441, but

that is the only sensible distribution, and since you make a slam move,

the diamond suit wont be rubbish, so the splinter is a fit jump, sort of.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

If i hold a solid suit i will elect to "bid ♦ 3 times."

[P_Marlowe]

If slam is on ... are you sure it is in ♥ ?

 

Anybody play fit jump here?

I guess a 4D still has the same meaning, even after the 3S call.

 

With no intervention - 4D would show a 6 carder and the heart fit,

but one usually requires a better suit, AKQxxx.

That is the classical meaning, but there is a approach, which reserves

the 4D bid for 5422 hands, the reason being, that with a 6 card suit

and 4 card support, you have a splinter.

 

The splinter basically gurantees 5diamonds, ... you could be 4441, but

that is the only sensible distribution, and since you make a slam move,

the diamond suit wont be rubbish, so the splinter is a fit jump, sort of.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

If i hold a solid suit i will elect to "bid ♦ 3 times."

Hi,

 

assuming you talk about the req. for a 4D bid:

 

The 4D bid showes a solid suit and a heart fit, it is up to partnership

agreement to decide, what suit holding qualifies to be called "solid".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

I am just curious. If you splinter would partner bid ♦ with ♦ Kxx ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I come to auctions that splinter the opponent's suits there's oftenly a group of tables bid something like a fit jump.

 

I throught "splinter" and "fit jumps" are a pair! But here i met all fans of "Splinter"

Why should p bid diamonds with Kxx in diamonds?

 

Usually a 4-4 fit playes better than a 5-3 fit, this does

not always hold true, but reasonable often.

 

Partner will upgrade the K, he will also upgrade the King,

if he happens to hold only Kx in diamonds, or even the

single king of diamonds alone.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

As  a beginner, you may shoudl choose a simple 4 ♥. But the hand is strong enough for 3 ♠ too, espacially if you have enough tools to find out below 4 ♥ whether partners hand is suitable or not.

While I generally think beginners should keep auctions simple, avoiding the 3♠ bid is not a good example of this. Even if you maintain that, for beginners, each bid should have the simplest reasonable meaning, 3♠ can't possibly be anything except a splinter, so you should use that bid when appropriate.

Of course 3 spade should be a splinter. The bid is easy.

But after a splinter the bidding is not over. You surely have tools to limit your hand later, but a beginner has not.

And obviously we disagree whether this should be the part of the game a beginner should study with high priority or not.

[MinorKid]

So far very most of us bid 3♠ (and that is my software's answer)

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sakhk6542dk96c854&s=shat87daqt743cat2]133|200|Scoring: IMP

The bidding is simply

1♦ {-} 1♥ {1♠}

3♠ {Dbl} 5N {-}

6♥ {-} - {-}

 

Edited on 18 MAR[/hv]

 

Here's what had happened in my table

me

1♦ {-} 1♥ {1♠}

3♦ {3♠} 4♦ {-}

4♥ {-} 4♠ {-}

4NT {-} 5♥! {-} ♠A + ♦K

5NT {-} 6NT {-} 2 outside Kings

7♦ {-} - {-}

 

Note that my 3♦ did not deny any ♥ but show ♥ support of some sort and it garantees some honors in bidded suit.

 

and it is the "4NT" table

1♦ {-} 1♥ {1♠}

4NT!! {-} 5♦ {-} Simple Blackwood

5NT!! {-} 6NT {-}

7NT!! {-} - {Dbl}!!

- {-} -

 

Please don't laugh at the hand or my biddings... ;)

[vuroth]

So? Were hearts 2-2?

[jjbrr]

What is the auction under "the bidding is simply" and then some nonsense?

 

4♠ is hopeless. redbl would show 1st round control then it can go 4♣-4♦.

 

I admit I'd never get to grand, and wouldn't feel too bad about that!

[bab9]

It seems I'm in the minority. I thought the best bid would be <double>, showing a genuine 2♥ call. If partner is minimum he simple bids 2♥, any other bid could be taken as game force. Can use your next bid to show a stronger hand (provided you play take-out doubles).

 

Would be happy to hear why people think a <double> is not a good bid in this situation.

 

 

Being a relative beginner, I was taught that if you have 10+ HCP your response to an opening bid should be at the two level, unless supporting partners suit. If have discussed splinters with a number of partner more experienced then I am, and:

- most don't play them

- some thought a splinter was shown by a double jump shift

- others thought a splinter was shown by a triple jump shift.

 

If you are going to use splinters, make sure you and partner have a clear understanding of how to show them.

 

One partner I play with has a convention where if there is inference, a 2NT bid is game force, and can be used as a baby blackwood.

[mike777]

As a B/I I find with difficult hands often to cuebid or double is a reasonable choice.

 

 

So here I cuebid spades.

 

Try it and see if you like these two options with hands that you feel are difficult.

[MinorKid]

It seems I'm in the minority. I thought the best bid would be <double>, showing a genuine 2♥ call. If partner is minimum he simple bids 2♥, any other bid could be taken as game force. Can use your next bid to show a stronger hand (provided you play take-out doubles).

 

Would be happy to hear why people think a <double> is not a good bid in this situation.

 

 

Being a relative beginner, I was taught that if you have 10+ HCP your response to an opening bid should be at the two level, unless supporting partners suit. If have discussed splinters with a number of partner more experienced then I am, and:

- most don't play them

- some thought a splinter was shown by a double jump shift

- others thought a splinter was shown by a triple jump shift.

 

If you are going to use splinters, make sure you and partner have a clear understanding of how to show them.

 

One partner I play with has a convention where if there is inference, a 2NT bid is game force, and can be used as a baby blackwood.

Double then rebid 3♦

 

Another beautiful description of your hand i think.

[MinorKid]

What is the auction under "the bidding is simply" and then some nonsense?

 

4♠ is hopeless. redbl would show 1st round control then it can go 4♣-4♦.

 

I admit I'd never get to grand, and wouldn't feel too bad about that!

thx

[P_Marlowe]

It seems I'm in the minority.  I thought the best bid would be <double>, showing a genuine 2♥ call.  If partner is minimum he simple bids 2♥, any other bid could be taken as game force.  Can use your next bid to show a stronger hand (provided you play take-out doubles).

 

Would be happy to hear why people think a <double> is not a good bid in this situation.

 

 

Being a relative beginner, I was taught that if you have 10+ HCP your response to an opening bid should be at the two level, unless supporting partners suit.  If have discussed splinters with a number of partner more experienced then I am, and:

    - most don't play them

    - some thought a splinter was shown by a double jump shift

    - others thought a splinter was shown by a triple jump shift.

 

If you are going to use splinters, make sure you and partner have a clear understanding of how to show them.

 

One partner I play with has a convention where if there is inference, a 2NT bid is game force, and can be used as a baby blackwood.

Well, you list possible misunderstandings regarding 3S.

 

But you overlook the fact, that making a X after the 1S overcall

is also not foolproof.

Lots of peoble play X as support X, i.e. showing 3 card support,

so making a double followed by 3D would show 6 diamonds and

precisly 3hearts.

Other peoble play X after 1S as T/O, short spades, i.e. there is also

some promised club support.

 

So, if you make the X, be sure, you are on the same page as p.

 

And I did not mention the fact, that for most 3D would be nonforcing, i.e.

you may end up playing 3D and going down, 4H or even 6H being cold.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[bab9]

But you overlook the fact, that making a X after the 1S overcall

is also not foolproof.

Lots of peoble play X as support X, i.e. showing 3 card support,

so making a double followed by 3D would show 6 diamonds and

precisly 3hearts.

Other peoble play X after 1S as T/O, short spades, i.e. there is also

some promised club support.

 

So, if you make the X, be sure, you are on the same page as p.

 

And I did not mention the fact, that for most 3D would be nonforcing, i.e.

you may end up playing 3D and going down, 4H or even 6H being cold.

 

I agree that the X would normally show 3 card support.

 

Personally, I would have doubled then rebid 4♥ and not a ♦. The reason for the double was to delay to let partner better describe their hand, and to try and show a stronger hand (by rebidding after a double).

 

Why rush when you know you have game (as long as you can make forcing bids)? Also you know you have a major fit, why not delay to see if you have a double fit.

 

I agree that 3♦ would be non-forcing, especially if you bid 1♦ 3♦. By bidding 1♦ X 3♦ partner should realise there are extra points in the hand.

 

I have played with a number of partners which would take-out the 3♦ to play in 3NT.

[cherdanno]

But you overlook the fact, that making a X after the 1S overcall

is also not foolproof.

Lots of peoble play X as support X, i.e. showing 3 card support,

so making a double followed by 3D would show 6 diamonds and

precisly 3hearts.

Other peoble play X after 1S as T/O, short spades, i.e. there is also

some promised club support.

 

So, if you make the X, be sure, you are on the same page as p.

 

And I did not mention the fact, that for most 3D would be nonforcing, i.e.

you may end up playing 3D and going down, 4H or even 6H being cold.

 

I agree that the X would normally show 3 card support.

 

Personally, I would have doubled then rebid 4♥ and not a ♦. The reason for the double was to delay to let partner better describe their hand, and to try and show a stronger hand (by rebidding after a double).

 

Why rush when you know you have game (as long as you can make forcing bids)? Also you know you have a major fit, why not delay to see if you have a double fit.

 

I agree that 3♦ would be non-forcing, especially if you bid 1♦ 3♦. By bidding 1♦ X 3♦ partner should realise there are extra points in the hand.

 

I have played with a number of partners which would take-out the 3♦ to play in 3NT.

Better rush to describe your hand than to misdescribe your hand slowly! After a

- support double you can never show more than 3 hearts,

- takeout double you can never show a hand with more than 3 hearts

- penalty double you can never show less than 4 spades anymore.

 

Double with a known fit does not exist in this auction unless you have very non-standard agreements.

[MinorKid]

So ... after splinter how do you go to 7♦ if you want to?

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I emailed my partner today about that. He said if he bid a direct 4♦ that is a honor (fitting) bid for slam. (Did you heard of that convension?) His reason is that we would never play 3NT after a splinter so we would use 3NT bid as a control cue bid request, while a immediate "cue-bid" shows honors in the suit.

[bid_em_up]

So ... after splinter how do you go to 7♦ if you want to?

You do not want to be in seven of anything on these holdings.

[cherdanno]

So ... after splinter how do you go to 7♦ if you want to?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I emailed my partner today about that. He said if he bid a direct 4♦ that is a honor (fitting) bid for slam. (Did you heard of that convension?) His reason is that we would never play 3NT after a splinter so we would use 3NT bid as a control cue bid request, while a immediate "cue-bid" shows honors in the suit.

Over 3♠, any side suit bid is a cuebid, showing A, K, singleton or void in the suit. However, it is a very good idea not to cuebid with shortness in partner's suit, only with A or K. So your partner is right.

In other words, just because you found one fit (hearts) does not mean you can't find another fit (in diamonds) later.

However, again I think it is very unlikely that you will need to play this hand in diamonds.

[MinorKid]

So ... after splinter how do you go to 7♦ if you want to?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I emailed my partner today about that. He said if he bid a direct 4♦ that is a honor (fitting) bid for slam. (Did you heard of that convension?) His reason is that we would never play 3NT after a splinter so we would use 3NT bid as a control cue bid request, while a immediate "cue-bid" shows honors in the suit.

Over 3♠, any side suit bid is a cuebid, showing A, K, singleton or void in the suit. However, it is a very good idea not to cuebid with shortness in partner's suit, only with A or K. So your partner is right.

In other words, just because you found one fit (hearts) does not mean you can't find another fit (in diamonds) later.

However, again I think it is very unlikely that you will need to play this hand in diamonds.

Perhaps a direct 4♦ shows more than ♦Kxx while 4♦ via 3NT can be somthing like ♦K or ♦Kx. :rolleyes:

For a suit that had not been bid it has to be at least five card suit with honors that needs a fit. Just like those required for a fit jump. i.e. like KJxxx AQxxx AKxxx...

[MinorKid]

OK now i tell all of you the result.

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sakhk6542dk96c854&w=s96532hj93dj8cj63&e=sqjt874hqd52ckq97&s=shat87daqt743cat2]399|300|Scoring: IMP

N/S trick expectation

C 9

D 13

H 12

S 6

N 11~12[/hv]

 

First of all if you splinter you will mostly go to 6♥ and make it. If you use the "honor fitting" cue bid i introduced after splinter you may also make 7♦ if you hold your captaincity.

 

Secondly, i had a firm agreement with my partner that a jump to a suit after an overcall is a fit jump and should tell more information than heart support (i.e. diamonds are important too.) all in one bid. It works too!

 

Finally the 7NT guys makes when west discarded a heart after 6 rounds of ♦ and 2 rounds of ♠.

[manudude03]

I won't comment on the agreement of 3♦ promising a fit. All I'll say is that it is almost certainly the case that if you employ 1 treatment to show 1 hand, you lose the ability to show another. Just take another hand posted here (by ArtK78) xxx x AKQJxx AQx, this would now be near impossible to show.

 

FWIW, the actual hand is a good grand, but not a great one. 7♦ is only a little better than 7♥ (sobeit on this hand 7♦ makes and not 7♥).

 

Edit: example hand removed, nonsense.

[MinorKid]

xxx x AKQJxx AQx

"Bid ♦ 3 times."

 

xxx xx AKQJx AKQ

Rebid ♦ ... hope for the best

 

EDITED:

xx x AJTxxxx AQx

Rebid ♦ ... see if partner raise

 

If i dont "raise", "splinter", "fit jump" or give any support showing bid,

partner should immediate know we have a misfit in that suit.

Afterall "support with support" is in first priority for contested auctions.

 

Perhaps one is right to not to play fit jump here, i had opened 1♦.

But there's no reason that you cannot hold 1-4-4-4 without any ♦ honors.

[ArtK78]

xxx x AKQJxx AQx

"Bid ♦ 3 times."

 

xxx xx AKQJx AQx

Rebid ♦ ...

 

If i dont "raise", "splinter", "fit jump" or give any support showing bid,

partner should immediate know we have a misfit.

Afterall "support with support" is in first priority for contested auctions.

 

Perhaps one is right to not to play fit jump here, i had opened 1♦.

But there's no reason that you cannot hold 1-4-4-4 without any ♦ honors.

If you would bid diamonds 3 times with xxx x AKQJxx AQx, what would you do with xx x AJTxxxx AQx? These are certainly drastically different hands.

[MinorKid]

If opponent overcall which makes this impossible, let them off.