Stiff opposite Stiff

[Echognome]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=skqjxxxhxxdacaxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) - 1♠ - (P) - 4♦;

(P) - ?[/hv]

 

4♦ was a splinter, which is played as limit plus.

 

Your call?

[jjbrr]

5♣

[hrothgar]

5♣ cue looks like the best way to avoid a slam off two quick Heart tricks...

[rogerclee]

4H, keeps us a level lower, and if we bid slam, I want to make it not completely obvious that a heart lead is right.

 

BTW I play this does not promise a heart control, but even if it did, I would bid 4H anyway.

[Fluffy]

If partner has 4315 the best bid is 4♥ to avoid the maybe killing lead, but if not playing mind games I guess 5♣ is the only bid, singing off if partner jsut bids 5♦ or 5♥ next. We are off 5 cards, and partner only promised 3.

[cherdanno]

I would bid 4♠ and don't really think it's close, so I am surprised about the other replies (but I don't know what a "limit plus"-splinter is).

[hanp]

No way you would bid 4S.

[Echognome]

We definitely do not play any form of last train. So hidden continuations are:

 

If you bid 4♥ -

Partner bids 4NT

 

 

If you bid 4♠ -

Partner passes

 

 

If you bid 5♣ -

Partner bids 5H

 

 

Back to you.

 

Edit - I checked with partner on what he would actually bid.

[cherdanno]

Maybe I don't know what a splinter is in standard. I thought with a typical 5431 shape it shows 10-12 hcp, or bad 13. I can't see how trying for slam can be good opposite that.

[hanp]

Why would partner bid 4D limit plus, and then go on after 4H on a 9-count?

 

I don't understand the system at all. How can you play "limit plus" 4D and then not play 4H as last train? There must be some way to say that you have slam interest if partner has extras?

 

I'd say that last train is good after a normal splinter, but after a wide ranging splinter it seems like an absolute must.

 

I think that pretty much everybody plays last train here, even if they don't call it last train.

[Fluffy]

I will play only 5♠ on this deal one route or another.

 

 

why didn't you like 2♥ gnome? is 2♥+4♠ stronger?

[Echognome]

Why would partner bid 4D limit plus, and then go on after 4H on a 9-count?

Because partner would think you hold the ♥K. I'm not saying the agreements are best. Just telling you what they are.

 

Edit - Checked with partner. See edited continuations.

[kenrexford]

I really dislike splinters as my first call unless I have fairly strict parameters, because 2/1 sequences solve a lot of problems with these sorts of questions when partner's hand can be better defined.

 

The general parameters I use would be to have fairly certain "primes" holdings (where cues won't help that much) and fairly evenly split between the remaining side suits. Plus, I'd really like some sort of parameters on cover cards promised.

 

If one assumes that approach, or something similar, then partner almost is forced by the circumstance of what I am looking at to have ♠Axxx ♥AKx(x)(x) ♦x ♣Kxx(x)(x). (4414, 4315, or 4513) But, with the specific instance of ♠Axxx ♥AKxxx ♦x ♣Kxx, a 2♥ response is too appealing as an alternative (enabling a cue of the heart Queen).

 

So, I would end up visualizing either ♠Axxx ♥AKxx ♦x ♣Kxxx or ♠Axxx ♥AKx ♦x ♣Kxxxx for partner's only possible storng-splinter hands.

 

Opposite the former, I pretty much need a 3-2 club split, or someone looking at the 10 of clubs well-placed, or the club 9 and a stiff honor all well-placed. With the latter, I'm in really good shape.

 

However, with "limit plus," I need more than the minimum for that hand. "Limit+" is quite a wild range, actually, so I don't know what partner has or what he need for slam acceptance.

 

I presume that the availability of a 4♥ call between 4♦ and a sign-off means that LTTC is available, but I don't know what this asks of partner. If 4♦ means at a minimum enough to force game, then "limit+" makes no sense. I suppose that means limit in HCP. So, if the LTTC asks for partner to go if he has better than "limit" HCP, I suppose I bid LTTC.

 

I'm REAL curious whether partner's 4♦ was "right." Or, "right" by my thinking.

 

If I were to guess, 4♥ (if LTTC) seems to make sense.

 

EDIT -- no last train used.

 

Well, this is just stupid, then. I abstain, because it seems absurdly idiotic to play Limit+ for splinters and yet no LTTC. You end up at the Binsky level too much, or missing slams too much.

[kfay]

I don't understand the system at all. How can you play "limit plus" 4D and then not play 4H as last train?

ch00 ch00 train?

 

Seems clear to me, Han.

[y66]

... 5C 5H 5S

 

Pard will go on with Axxx Axxx x KQxx.

[Free]

I really have a hard time chosing between 4♥ and 4♠. Singleton vs singleton is usually bad news. Ace in partner's singleton isn't that great either. We miss at least 6HCP in ♥, ♣ and ♠ (if partner is max and no singleton ♦K/Q/J). I'm pretty pessimistic about this hand, so I'd probably just bid 4♠ without much confidence.