kgr Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 1♣-1♠2♥-3♦4♣-4♥ 3♦ is 4th suit and GF (we play 2NT Lebensohl with weaker hands) Is 4♥ control for ♣ or is 4♥ a suggestion to play?...and more general: do you have general rules for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicklont Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 It is a suggestion to play a slam.Instead of using 4th suit responder could have supported with 3 or 4♥.He decided to go through the fourth suit before showing support so he has a very good hand. This is a general rule. Can you show minimum support of hearts after a reverse (Ingberman or Lebensohl)?In that case 3♥ would also be slammish en preferable because it leaves room for cuebidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Definitely not strain. For me, RKCB for clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 3♥ is forcing, using 4SF when you have a dorcing descriptive bid avaible is a very very bad idea. On any eperienced partnership I Expect 4♥ to be a cuebid for clubs (unless your surname ends in exford and you play a insane convention). Maybe Frances plays this as a moysan suggestion to play but I doubt it. One of my golden rules: never ask when you can show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 If 3H would have been forcing over 2H (which is consistent with 2NT as lebensohl) then 4H now is a cue for clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 3♥ would have been forcing.But 3♥ would show a 4c♥? Can 4♥ not be a 3c♥ and a suggestion to play in 4-3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 3♥ would have been forcing.But 3♥ would show a 4c♥? Can 4♥ not be a 3c♥ and a suggestion to play in 4-3? I would never assume this undiscussed. And I wouldn't even prefer it as an agreement, but if partner insisted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Strange bidding, 2S 5+ forcing, 3C/H forcing, 2NT possibly weak, so 3D must be YO baby we have the goods and 4H a cue bid for C. I f I am not holding that hand I should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 I think it's unusual to play lebensohl and 4th suit combined. But if you do that, then 4th suit must show a flexible hand, asking opener to set trumps before cuebidding can start. So 4♣ sets trumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 This was our not so successful bidding:[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sqjt43ht53da852cj&s=sa6hakq8dkca98632]133|200|[/hv]1♣-1♥! (1♥=T-Walsh, transfer ♠)2♥-3♦ (2♥=reverse, denying 3c♠, 1♠ would have been 3c♠ and forcing) (3♦=4SF)4♣-4♥4NT-5♣ (5♣=4 or 1)6♣-All pass 4♥ was meant by partner as a proposal to play, I took it as ♥-control for ♣.Maybe proposal to play is better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Would 2♠ by North be forcing? I think I would bid 2♠ regardless. Second choice 3NT. Or 2NT followed by 3NT (not sure what the difference is). Or 2NT intending to pass 3♣. Not sure what South would bid over 2NT, though. 3♦ really should be a descriptive bid as it otherwise takes up too much bidding space. North's hand is not suitable for 3♦ as he can't tolerate a 4♣ bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 the problem was the 3D bid. Since you already know you don't have a spade fit, you can use leben 2NT to deny 9 HCP, then land in 3NT. I would bet you can make it, even with the transportation issues. doubt the opps can double-dummy the defense, if there is a route to defeat. Four Spades also works, if south bids 3S/2NT having already denied 3 of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 I guess after 3♦ opener will probably bid 3NT with a diamond stop or 3♠ with 3 cards. So the rebid of 4♣ should mean "I have none of those, thus a 6-4". In light of this, I think 4♥ makes more sense as proposal to play there, in the 4-3 fit. Because the 4th suit seems to be in this case a tool to get to the STRAIN, not the level, if responder wanted to go club slamming he had the options to bid 3♣ (or even 4♣) instead. Anyway, this is the sort of bid I would try to avoid without having had previous discussion. With the actual hand there was the alternative to bid 2♠, so I would have preferred that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 south is not close to 4♣ over 3♦, he should bid 3♠ or 3♥, he has 6 clubs, but they are awful, 3♠ bid its much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 the problem was the 3D bid. Since you already know you don't have a spade fit, you can use leben 2NT to deny 9 HCP, then land in 3NT. I would bet you can make it, even with the transportation issues. doubt the opps can double-dummy the defense, if there is a route to defeat. Four Spades also works, if south bids 3S/2NT having already denied 3 of them. Most people play that, over reverses, lebensohl 2N followed by 3N shows a mild slam try. I would have bid 2♠, forcing 1 round, and then 3N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 no they don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 no they don't excuse me, but what I should have said is that most of the people in my part of the world play it that way, I have no reference for the rest of the world other than these forums, where I have also seen that suggested as a treatment. edited: I see you're from approximately my part of the world. Ask the better players in your area how they play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Would 2♠ by North be forcing?YesI think I would bid 2♠ regardless. Second choice 3NT. Or 2NT followed by 3NT (not sure what the difference is).3NT is to play. 2NT followed by 3NT is slam try 13-14.]Or 2NT intending to pass 3♣. Not sure what South would bid over 2NT, though.I would bid 3♦, 4SF I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 no they don't excuse me, but what I should have said is that most of the people in my part of the world play it that way, I have no reference for the rest of the world other than these forums, where I have also seen that suggested as a treatment. 2NT..3NT is 13-14 for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 south is not close to 4♣ over 3♦, he should bid 3♠ or 3♥, he has 6 clubs, but they are awful, 3♠ bid its much better. right (maybe 3♥ is best. The suit is good enough and less risks for misunderstanding. ...3♠ is also good to avoid 5-6 misunderstanding. Theoretically best I think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONEferBRID Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 As the others have stated, a 2♠ rebid ( showing 5+cards ) by Responder (playing Lebensohl-- 2NT! here as the start of a sign-off) is forcing over a reverse.. It's close, but you just have enough to make that bid.3♦ is also forcing and natural ( and not 4th suit forcing in the usual sense that it could be artificial -- 2S is enough to show 5 cards ) .... but Responder is not strong or shapely enough for a 3-level new suit rebid at this juncture. 1C - 1S2H - 2S3C - 3D3NT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 I was responding to KQR's real auction. In that auction, 2S would no-longer show merely 5, but 6+, since opener denied 3 spades earlier. 2NT (less than 9 HCP) would not get a 3C rebid by opener, because his hand is too good. Thus, Opener can freely show his big hand and HX of spades by bidding 3S. That leads to a makable contract of 4S or 3NT. You can keep your smug "ask the better players" remark to your self, Gibson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 south is not close to 4♣ over 3♦, he should bid 3♠ or 3♥, he has 6 clubs, but they are awful, 3♠ bid its much better. right (maybe 3♥ is best. The suit is good enough and less risks for misunderstanding. ...3♠ is also good to avoid 5-6 misunderstanding. Theoretically best I think) Reading aquahombre I realice you play transfers over 1♣, 3♠ is mandatory then as he points out, south denied 3 spades and he has the best possible suppport now: Hx Thx to the transfer you should land in 4♠. wich is the best spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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