Slam time

[obscurans]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sak62h6dak532c854&w=sqj4ht4d9864c9763&e=s8hj98752dqjtckj2&s=st9753hakq3d7caqt]399|300|Scoring: IMP

1♠ -pass-2♦ -pass-

2♥*-pass-3♣*-pass-

3N -pass-4♠ -pass-

4N*-pass-5♣ -pass-

5♦ -pass-6♠ -all pass

 

*: downgraded for the ♦ misfit

*: 4sf

*: if p hid the ♠ fit, then 4sf shows strength; 0314[/hv]

First up, kudos to partner for figuring out what I needed there. Nothing to the play, I even got a friendly ♣ lead.

 

Just wondering how it would go under 2/1.

[kenrexford]

You will get a lot of answers as to how it would go with 2/1 GF. I'll start with my own methods.

 

1♠-P-2♦(GF)-P-

2♥-P-2♠(spades agreed, GF)-P-

2NT(not two of the top three spade honors)-P-3♦(no club control, two of the top three diamonds, and not [two top spades, three of top four diamonds, no club control, but stiff in hearts].-P-

3♥(two of the top three hearts, at least second-round club control)-P-3♠(two of the top three spades)-P-

4♣(non-serious, first-round club control)-P-?

 

At this point, Responder sort of needs to make a fudge bid, IMO. In looking at his hand, Responder wants to move forward if opener has either the third top heart (for an extra club pitch) or the missing third top diamond. The lie that gets the right answer is to re-cue diamonds, ostensibly showing all three top diamonds. This call is calculated to:

 

1. Induce a heart cue (as actually happens),

2. Result in a 4♠ signoff (respected), or

3. RFesult in Opener wondering how Responder could cuebid all three top diamonds when Opener is looking at the Queen (in that scenario). If opener knows this ruse, then Opener realizes that his diamond Queen is really important and either shows it or starts RKCB, depending.

 

Some auctions require thoughtful fudging.

[dicklont]

When you play picture bids in 2/1 it's easy:

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 4♠ *)

4NT **)

 

*) this shows a hand with all values in spades and diamonds.

**) RKCB

South can drive to slam now, settling for 6 when he finds out about ♠Q.

 

2-1 without picturebids:

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♠

4♣*) - 4♦ *)

4♥*) - 4NT **)

etc..

*) cue

**) RKCB

[Fluffy]

Kudos for reaching 6, however I think north made a small mistake playing SAYC or non 2/1 GF:

 

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-3♠

 

This shows a strong hand willing to play slam in spades, this is IMO what north should had bid, he is worth it.

 

 

But back to topic, playing 2/1

 

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-???

 

Now north again is maybe worth 3♠, but the bidding is a bit different he doesn't need to stretch to bid it since 2♠ is also forcing.

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-2♠

3♣-??

 

 

should north splinter now?, the problem with second round splinters is that they do not show 4 trumps, and north is too strong for a splinter now IMO, he has no 5 level safety though, but he won't be happy with partner's sing off. After all he is just missing 4 keycards (♠Q♥A,♣A and any King or ♦Q), so as long as partner has 3 useful cards and no 2 aces missing, slam should be worth playing.

 

so no splinter

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-2♠

3♣-3♦

3♥-3♠

4♥-4NT

5♥-6♠

[junyi_zhu]

When you play picture bids in 2/1 it's easy:

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 4♠ *)

4NT **)

 

*) this shows a hand with all values in spades and diamonds.

**) RKCB

South can drive to slam now, settling for 6 when he finds out about ♠Q.

 

2-1 without picturebids:

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♠

4♣*) - 4♦ *)

4♥*) - 4NT **)

etc..

*) cue

**) RKCB

The 4S bid is wrong because by definition, 4S over 2H should show 4-2-5-2 shape if one plays "picture bids". Also, the overall strength is just too strong to bid 4S with north's hand.

The bidding sequence for the 1S 2D 2H 3C ... is also very wrong. Even playing ACOL, north's hand is a clear 3S bid over 2H, which is gameforcing. This 3C then later support strategy works very poorly cause it wasted a lot of bidding space without showing the excellent support and controls at a lower level.

[karlson]

I admit that I would just start with 2n over 1♠ on this hand. Yes, the diamonds are important, but they may well not be the key to slam. You might get to find out about short clubs right away, or partner might have a hand where he can take over knowing about 4 trumps.

[ONEferBRID]

I'm with Karlson:

 

1S     - Jac2NT

3D! (shortness) - 3H ( cue*--recognized as shortness by South )

4NT - 5C ( 0 or 3 )

5D ( ♠Q-ask ) - 5S ( nope )

6S

______________________________________________________________

*Opener realizes shortness-opposite-shortness is always a good bet for slam

without the need for a whole lot of hcp...and now is ready to check for keycards.

 

If North held only 2 key cards, I'd still go to 6 with the trump Q reply, 5S = 2 + Q .

No spade Q ( 5H reply ) and I'll rest in 5S and hope I can make it... but North would most likely have stuff in Clubs ( K, etc ) for the GF 2NT and Ht-shortness .

[the hog]

I agree with Dicklont's bidding. This is easy for Picture Bids.

[aguahombre]

Picture bids should have no first or second round control of the other two suits. With a singleton heart, this is not a picture bid.

 

in 2/1, we would have the same auction as the poster had. We bid around the stiff heart with a tad more than an immediate splinter. but it would not be horrible to bid 2D and then jump raise spades to show slam interest, either.

[655321]

I am a Jacoby bidder too.

 

Playing a method where opener has to rebid 3♣ with all minimums, opener can show diamond shortage with extra values, then cue 4♣ after which responder can keycard and bid 6.

[the hog]

Picture bids should have no first or second round control of the other two suits. With a singleton heart, this is not a picture bid.

 

in 2/1, we would have the same auction as the poster had. We bid around the stiff heart with a tad more than an immediate splinter. but it would not be horrible to bid 2D and then jump raise spades to show slam interest, either.

Yes you are correct of course. I posted this early this morning and was half asleep.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Which system?

I would assume 2H the call in most systems I know, even playing Acol.

 

In a 2/1 or SAYC context, one would bid 3S instead of 3C, if 3S is NF,

than you have to go via fsf.

 

The rest of the auction looks reasonable, although I would not bid 6S, I

would answer the 5d question, for all you know, opener may be looking

for 7, unless 2H did limit openers hand to 15/16.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mcphee]

This post has begun in an odd way. The desire to make use of a conventional 2NT is to me a very poor choice. Bidding, simply put, is about asking and telling. Jacoby is designed for balanced hands that want to ASK something. Splinters are designed to TELL something. Bidding a suit when these other choices are present is TELLING something.

 

I know that in Europe it is in many areas is is big to set trumps with 4 card support. On this side of the pond it is considered a major error to by pass a 5 card trick taking suit, something I am in complete agreement with. In support of this, lets say partner happens to have 3 small, it certainly makes life easier on them for slam purposes in further development of the bidding.

 

Hands that are interested is searching for slam should never use up bidding room with jumps unless the present a clear photo.

 

1S 2D

2H 2S

3C* it shows something of value in the suit.

 

At this stage you can come up with many plans to further the auction and discover you belong in 6S. These plans depend on your partnership bidding agreements. With some pick up player after 3C I would just bide my time with 3S to see what takes place next. Frankly it will be difficult to prevent me from reaching slam after 3C.

 

After 2H I do not approve of leaping to 3S to show my delight to set S as trumps. If partner now continues to 4S (and they will on lots of hands holding Kx in C and a minimum) we are on thin ice should we continue bidding.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure what all this discussion is about concerning picture bids. I mean, a "picture splinter" works almost perfectly for me (I want slightly better diamonds, but I catually considered fudging -- AKJxx would be enough).

 

So, if you like picture bids, then perhaps picture splinters work?

 

Set trumps (2♠), hear some call (2NT or 3♣, whatever that shows for you), and then jump to 4♥ as a "picture splinter."

 

If you think the "picture splinter" is too limiting, consider that you probably have other ways to handle the non-picture splinter hands, like an immediate splinter as your first bid, cuebidding (or pattern bidding) around the stiff, etc.

[Fluffy]

my problem with the picture splinter is a: it is limited, and b: it normally its bid with just 3 trumps.

[kenrexford]

my problem with the picture splinter is a: it is limited, and b: it normally its bid with just 3 trumps.

Well, if you have 20 ways of bidding a hand, and none of them fit, then you have to pick one that doesn't fit the least.

[aguahombre]

my problem with the picture splinter is a: it is limited, and b: it normally its bid with just 3 trumps.

My problem with it is that (often) by the time you get around to using it, it is no longer available as a jump and/or might be unclear what strain is set.

[aguahombre]

Well, if you have 20 ways of bidding a hand, and none of them fit, then you have to pick one that doesn't fit the least.

I think all too often on these fora the choice is to invent a 21st way, claim it is one's established agreement, and not worry that the new gadget replaces a bid which might be better used, and more frequently, in a different way.

 

Your idea is more practical.

 

Before the bashing begins, let me acknowledge there are several treatments mentioned or invented on a forum which don't require major system revamping and fill important gaps.

[billw55]

Interesting, nobody wants to splinter immediately .. I was thinking

 

1♠ 4♥

5♣ 5♦

5♥ 6♦

6♠

 

but I guess this is not popular ... admittedly 4♥ takes up a lot of room.

[gwnn]

if your partner splinters and you have AKQx in that suit and 5 small in trumps I don't think it's a good idea to cooperate.

[gnasher]

The bidding sequence for the 1S 2D 2H 3C ... is also very wrong. Even playing ACOL, north's hand is a clear 3S bid over 2H, which is gameforcing.

3♠ isn't forcing in English Acol. In fact, it seems difficult to play it as forcing in a 4-card major system. Are you supposed to bid 2♠ on everything from a reluctant preference to a 3-card limit raise?

 

"Acol", incidentally, is a name not an acronym, so there's no particular reason to write the whole word in upper case.