When is a board "started"?

[pran]

I have a firm opinion that it must be illegal for the Director to stop play on a board once the auction period for that board has begun (Law 17A: The auction period on a deal begins for a side when either partner withdraws his cards from the board. and Law 8B1: In general, a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of players.)

 

However, the Director is at liberty to impose a penalty on players that have not finished play on a board in time. (Law 90)

 

What I sometimes have done when noticing that a table is running late and still has not started on their last board when there is say 3 to 5 minutes left of the round is to give them the following "offer":

 

You may skip the last board in which case both sides receive A-, or you may play the board and have it scored normally. However, if you then do not finish in time both sides will receive a late play penalty equivalent to double A-.

 

Most often they take the challenge, play the board and finish on time!

[blackshoe]

While I can sympathize with a player who has been slowed down by age (after all, I'm one of them! :) ) and I agree that generally one should be a bit more lenient on such players than one might otherwise be, when such a player causes (or might cause) multiple boards to be lost by other pairs, something needs to be done about it other than just taking away boards from the other pairs. Well known expert or not. :)

[VixTD]

While I can sympathize with a player who has been slowed down by age (after all, I'm one of them! :) ) and I agree that generally one should be a bit more lenient on such players than one might otherwise be, when such a player causes (or might cause) multiple boards to be lost by other pairs, something needs to be done about it other than just taking away boards from the other pairs. Well known expert or not. :)

Excluding them from the tournament is the only solution that springs to mind (or dissuading them from entering), and that's more the job of the organiser than the director.

[blackshoe]

Are we to understand that this person plays so slowly as to preclude the pair following him from completing all their scheduled boards in a round, but not so slowly that he should get boards taken away from him?

[Pig Trader]

.... the timer should be the servant of the TD and not his master, and I will not cede control of the game to a machine.

Excellent, James! My club committee are wittering on about wanting a timer and you've given me the perfect wording with which to reply if they manage to get one! :P

[chastibb]

VixTD

Of course Law 8B prevents you from removing a board from the current round once started

I used to remove a board for the offenders inbetween rounds.

[bluejak]

This is a quote from the EBU White Book that I used when TD’ing for slow play

 

<<Quote ..81.4.2 Pairs events

If the TD is unable to establish which pair is to blame, then he should award average for each board removed. A non-offending pair is entitled to A+, and an offending pair receives A– (see #12.1.1).

A TD is entitled to be stricter with a pair known to be slow. Inexperienced players, the infirm and the elderly should be treated less strictly.Unquote>>

 

In a club where you have TD’d for many years you “know” the players that play slowly and it’s the TD’s job to watch these players.

 

They used to get one warning and if slow play continued a board was removed. It is in black and white that you can do this (see above) and one of the posters edits this book.

 

The score assigned for slow play was as quoted above so how folk can say its “illegal” is beyond me.

It is legal [and normal] to remove a board that has not been started. Once the auction has commenced it may not be stopped.

[bluejak]

Certainly you can take away a board from the current round so long as it has not been started. And Law 88 is not a Law that really exists: are you sure you are looking in the current book?

[dburn]

Certainly you can take away a board from the current round so long as it has not been started. And Law 88 is not a Law that really exists: are you sure you are looking in the current book?

Are you sure you are looking at the current screen? The reference was to Law 8B, not Law 88.

[blackshoe]

Yes. I suspect it may have been changed at some point, or perhaps David misread it.

 

More interesting is the question whether 8B actually says what's asserted. I suspect the poster believes that rounds are sequential and non-overlapping, but Law 8B2 pretty clearly says (to me, at least) that if the TD directs that say, play of the third board of round 2 be postponed, and (implicitly, at least) that the players move on to round 3 then round 3 is (and subsequent rounds, in their turn are) started even though round 2 has not yet (technically) finished for the pairs in question.

 

Put it this way: if a round has ended for the players concerned, you can't postpone any boards, because they all will have been played.

[bluejak]

It still looks like 88 to me, but I see what you mean. However, 8B does not say a board may not be removed, so while at least the Law has relevance, it does not stop removal of a board.

[Mbodell]

We have a local club game that is run with time efficiency as one of the main goals. The directors there strongly say don't start the last board if there is 4 minutes or less on the clock (sometimes in a 15 minute 2 board round, sometimes in a 21 minute 3 board round). It is enforced often but not always.

 

I dislike this take. I think the beep at 2 minutes is the right time to tell pairs to move if they can and to expect the slow tables to pass their boards. But I think folks should be able to start boards up to when the clock hits 0. I also agree that removing a board once the auction has started is terrible. A different local director (who primarily does 299er games) does that.

 

Just yesterday in the first round of the second session of the national IMP pairs our opponents from the last round hadn't started their second board when the 15 minutes for round 1 expired. The bid and claimed and were at our table in less than 2 minutes though, so decent players can be fast when needed.

[Cyberyeti]

Well, folks, tonight the TD took the board away after two rounds of bidding over my vehement objections that it was illegal. Slightly different insofar as this club has no stated policy: I do not like a policy that allows illegal actions by TDs but at least you know where you are. When I said it was illegal the TD said I had not led. Thinking back, and my memory is not that good, I believe this is the first time this has ever happened to me.

Do you have the reference as to it being illegal to remove a board after bidding has started.

 

Director removed a board from me with one bid left in the auction, partner was about to double for a telephone number, after our opps had arrived at the table a board and a half late. I told him he couldn't do that, he wasn't having any of it.

[dburn]

Do you have the reference as to it being illegal to remove a board after bidding has started?

There is no explicit reference to the removal of a board at any time being illegal - it is an inference drawn from Law 8B (where 8 is the integer one greater than 7 and B is the first letter of the word Bravo):

 

8: SEQUENCE OF ROUNDS

 

B. End of Round

 

1. In general, a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of players.

[chastibb]

For Cyber Yeti

 

Definition: “Play” the front of the 2007 Law Book

 

<<Quote Play — 1. The contribution of a card from one’s hand to a trick, including

the first card, which is the lead. 2. The aggregate of plays made. 3. The period during which the cards are played. 4. The aggregate of the calls and plays on a board.

>>End quote

 

<<Quote Law 8B. End of Round

1. In general, a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of players.

>>End quote

 

So according to the definitions, once a player has made a bid/call the board must be finished, Law 8B says so.

 

Otherwise a board(s) that has not been started on the current round it can be removed by the TD.

[blackshoe]

The logic is flawed, as 8B does not say what is asserted. What it says is that the round isn't over if play has not been completed, which is a different thing.

[chastibb]

Blackshoe

Please explain your 1st sentence.

Its bewildering.

What flaw are we talking about and pray what does "does not say what is asserted" mean in plain english.

 

We are talking about when a board may be removed not what isn't written in Law8B

 

As for your 2nd sentence I really thought thats what I said <_<

[blackshoe]

Blackshoe

Please explain your 1st sentence.

Its bewildering.

What flaw are we talking about and pray what does "does not say what is asserted" mean in plain english.

 

We are talking about when a board may be removed not what isn't written in Law8B

 

As for your 2nd sentence I really thought thats what I said <_<

"So according to the definitions, once a player has made a bid/call the board must be finished, Law 8B says so."

 

Law 8B doesn't say that. The flaw in your logic is concluding that it does say that from the premises you stated.

 

"We" may be talking about when a board may be removed, but you're the one talking about what is (and is not) in 8B.

 

It seems clear that if a board has not been started, the TD can postpone its play (Laws 81C1 and 82B2). It seems equally clear that the TD should not postpone the play of a board that has already been started, even if we can't point to a specific law that says so. So we're back to the original question: "when is a board 'started'?" We've seen several answers to this:

 

1. When any hand is removed from the board (Law 17A).

2. When the first call is made.

3. When the opening lead is faced.

 

3 is clearly wrong. 2 has no support in the law, afaics. That leaves us with 1.