Normal situation

[Siegmund]

...and I hasten to add, there are still a fair few people out there who DO play penalty doubles after their own side has bid some number of notrump. I'm not surprised that a number of experts play it as takeout, but I was surprised by the unanimity in the thread.

[gwnn]

I am sure this is a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy that I will write but stillI would like to say that I would not consider someone who plays "all doubles as penalty after any NT bids" as an expert. I mean I am really open minded and can see reasons for a penalty X after auctions like

 

1NT-2M-x

1M-1NT-2M-x

 

even though I would not be happy to need to agree to any of them. But

 

1M-p-1NT-3x

dbl

 

is absolutely unplayable as penalty and I think anyone who thinks otherwise needs to reconsider all the implications.

[aguahombre]

some, I guess would say that a forcing NT/1M is a notrump bid. They might argue that most of the forcing NT responses are notrumpish in nature.

 

But, others have a whole lot of unbalanced hands unsuitable for notrump mixed in. So, using the forcing NT as a case for making all doubles penalty is questionable.

 

Gwnn: unless you know the whole style of a pair who might consider a certain double penalty, as opposed to takeout --perhaps degrading them out of the expert category is a bit presumptuous. That said, the double of 3D under the given conditions is probably better used as showing a good hand, with plenty of places to play --rather than penalty, by either north or south.

[aguahombre]

I disagree with the others about the part whether south should double 3 ♦ or not.

If north passes with his hand over 3 ♦, they obviously play penalty doubles here and south should double. I would hate this style, but even more I would hate to play a different style then partner.

This might not be true. Although North should have doubled, his failure to do so, with a tad less in values, shouldn't make a double by South penalty and doesn't necessarily mean that if North had doubled they treat it as penalty. Agree about hating that style, though.