continuations after jump shift

[bftboy]

I'd like to pick up this topic (which was discussed elsewhere) in more detail. You hold 10xxxx, Kx, Kxx, and K10x. The auction has proceeded 1♥ by P, 1♠ by you, and now 3♦ by P. In the other thread there was almost unanimity that responder's call now should be 3♥, not 3nt.

 

Why? what agreements are in place that makes 3♥ the correct call, and not 3nt? in particular, how do you then reach 3nt when it is the right contract? just trying to understand the methods. thx, :ph34r:

[jjbrr]

You have one honor in the black suits. You have two honors in partner's suits. Your hand rates to fit really well with partner's cards, so there is no hurry to grab NT. He hasn't denied 6♥ nor 5♦, so it's good to express interest in his suits. It's not a matter of agreements, but rather a matter of judgment that a red suit will play really well usually and 3NT could easily have problems. It wouldn't be hard to construct hands where we're cold for slam in a red suit and going down in 3NT. (An extreme example would be partner being 0553 and them taking the first 5 spades. Obv thats unlikely, but you see what I mean.)

[PhantomSac]

Good questions, imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jumpshift.

 

Why do we bid 3H?

 

Because we could belong in hearts

 

Partner could have 6 hearts easily.

 

If we bid 3N, partner will not know if we have 0 (4036), 1 (any number of shapes but 4135 etc), or 2 hearts. So if he has 6 hearts, he will have a hard time bidding 4H over 3N. This is especially true if his hearts aren't great, and given that we have the king, they probably won't be.

 

Also, on many hands the 5-2 heart fit will be right, and we certainly can't get there after 3N.

 

Because we could belong in diamonds

 

Partner could have 5-5 very easily, and we might belong in diamonds. Partner would need an extremely strong hand to bid 4D over 3N, after all, we could have 4225 with only black cards etc. Over 3H he will have a much easier time rebidding 4D if we bid 3H and he has some concentrated 5-5.

 

Because we could belong in spades

 

Nothing is to stop partner from having 3 spades. If we bid 3N, he's not going to bid 4S since we have not shown 5 of them. If we bid 3H, we have a much better shot of ending in spades when it's right (note if you bid 3H and partner bids 3S, this could be a doubleton honor, so you should bid 3N. However you have now shown some doubt and partner with a concentrated 3541 and especially with 3550 will pull.)

 

Because we could belong in slam

 

Our hand is very strong opposite a red 2 suiter. This is going to be especially true if our CK is working. If we bid 3N, our hand could be as weak as QJTx xx xx QJTxx. Parnter is not going to move for slam over it.

 

Because if we belong in NT, we can still easily get there over 3H

 

We have lots of room. If partner has some black cards, or at least club cards, eg 1543 or 2542, he will always bid 3N. If he has 2542 with no spade stopper it can go 3S-3N. This gets us to the crux of the matter:

 

Because 3H does not preclude any strain or level, and 3N often will.

 

Jumpshift auctions are bulky, a lot of room has been used up to create a GF, and many shapes are still possible for opener. Bidding 3H on a doubleton saves room, and allows for an intelligent investigation of strain and level, which is perfect since we have 4 possible strains, and possible slam.

 

This is a prototypical hand where you should be bidding 3H on a doubleton.

 

If you want, try to construct some hands for partner, and you will see how easy it is for slam to be right, other strains to be right, and NT to be wrong (hint: short spades with partner puts 3N in jeopardy, while pretty much making slam cold).

[whereagles]

imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jumpshift.

oh I doubt that. IMO the main source of disasters in natural bidding is the inability to understand one's capitaincy role as the bidding progresses...

 

jump shifts are peanuts as compared to this.

[peachy]

Phantomsac said it ALL. And well, too.

[awm]

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that while we always might belong in all these alternate strains, the goal here is to play the odds. The given hand will often belong somewhere other than 3NT. An alternative hand like ♠QJTx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣KJTx will rarely belong anywhere other than 3NT.

 

I agree with all Justin's original points; it's just that to one degree or another they can be made about any hand we could hold (and certainly any hand with a doubleton heart). Yet most hands do not lend themselves to red suit play so well as the particular one were given.

[PhantomSac]

The given hand will often belong somewhere other than 3NT. An alternative hand like ♠QJTx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣KJTx will rarely belong anywhere other than 3NT.

I struggle to see how this hand will ever belong somewhere other than 3N when partner will pass 3N.

 

Obv you are right though, if a hand belongs in some other strain 2 % of the time then that doesn't mean bidding 3N is wrong.

 

FWIW I think I would bid 3H with almost any hand with a doubleton heart in this auction, unless I had a hand like the one you gave (slow double stoppers in both blacks).

[gwnn]

[hijack]I am sure this will make me one of the people who do not understand the principle of captaincy but it seems to me that it is applicable to only a handful of situations in natural bidding. At the moment I can only think of RKC auctions (except when the asker bids 5NT) and well-defined splinters to be specific. Captaincy is clear-cut in strong ♣ (the ones starting with 1♣) auctions (well, usually the 1♣ opener is captain and that's that - that's not so complicated now is it :) ) but it is only a very small part of natural bidding, which is generally based on co-operative exchange of information. I think its importance is vastly overstated by many people.[/hijack]

[bftboy]

thx for responses. You've convinced me that 3♥ is the right call with the example hand, and I appreciate awm's example of slow stoppers in the blacks as a contrast. :)