Taking the plunge

[dcohio]

Well, I think I'm ready to try and learn a strong club system. Where would be my best place to start if I want a system that is completely ACBL GCC legal.

[jjbrr]

Someone posted notes for a simple meckwell light style strong club that was close to what many good pairs play. That's definitely my preference, particularly if you can find a partner to have lots of good agreements with and to discuss theory with and everything. It's a great system to customize for whatever you want it to be. It can either be really simple, or, if you prefer, you can really make it complicated and quite good, imo.

 

Others will tell you about all sorts of relay precision systems and CABs TABs and SABs and stuff, and I think those systems aren't as good. I've said it plenty of times before but I'll say it again. If your judgment in bidding is good, you don't need relays and stuff.

 

I think you'll really be happy with whatever you choose though.

[jmc]

If you are a self starter and learner I would recommend a couple of books. The first is Precision Today by Berkowitz and Manley. This book is a good intro to Precision and has some discussion of advance agreements as well. I understand a second edition is due out anytime. The second book I would recommend is Precision Bridge by Eric Jannersten. This book is fairly old but it presents more or less traditional Precision along with asking bids.

 

If you would like something more online and interactive, you might consider OliverC's Precision. He runs some lectures for the intermediate advance club and the beginner intermediate lounge. His web site is:

 

http://bbo.pigpen.org.uk/

 

Good luck! Its a whole new world.

 

jmc

[awm]

Others will tell you about all sorts of relay precision systems and CABs TABs and SABs and stuff, and I think those systems aren't as good. I've said it plenty of times before but I'll say it again. If your judgment in bidding is good, you don't need relays and stuff.

I'll disagree with this.

 

Obviously you need to have good judgement to do well at bridge. Relays only help you in unobstructed auctions, and competitive auctions (where you absolutely need good judgement to survive) are certainly quite common.

 

But with that said, an unobstructed relay auction is like picking a contract with partner's hand face up on the table. Accuracy is incredibly high. Looking at unobstructed slam auctions from top-flight events (and these are players with the best judgement in the world), their slam bidding is not anywhere close to single-dummy perfect.

 

So while I agree that there are other more important things to work on than relays -- card play and competitive bidding judgement are much more valuable for example -- I disagree that players with "good judgement" do as well as relayers in uncontested sequences.

[PhantomSac]

Relays in unobstructed auctions are clearly superior in slam auctions, but imo they are inferior in most game bidding auctions though I'm sure that is debatable. Either way it would be tough to just say "relay bidding is better in unobstructed auctions."

[jdonn]

I simply found relays were better in some game auctions and worse in some game auctions, it depends. Probably overall worse but it's not totally clear. However it was often worse on very easy hands and I have a problem with that, even if illogically.

[neilkaz]

If you are a self starter and learner I would recommend a couple of books. The first is Precision Today by Berkowitz and Manley. This book is a good intro to Precision and has some discussion of advance agreements as well. I understand a second edition is due out anytime. The second book I would recommend is Precision Bridge by Eric Jannersten. This book is fairly old but it presents more or less traditional Precision along with asking bids.

 

If you would like something more online and interactive, you might consider OliverC's Precision. He runs some lectures for the intermediate advance club and the beginner intermediate lounge. His web site is:

 

http://bbo.pigpen.org.uk/

 

Good luck! Its a whole new world.

 

jmc

DC, I have Precision Today and would be happy to try playing it per that book with you online and we can practice bidding as well.

 

As for a 2nd edition of the book, will be an entirely new book, or just a reprint with a few things added?

 

.. neilkaz also wanting to become good playing precision ..

[dcohio]

prec. today is backordered... looking for a copy

[gwnn]

this is the thread jjbrr was talking about

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=35931

 

But you could just play the BBO precision system? It was composed by helene_t after a lot of polling on the forums. It is a completely alright system. You could just sit down with someone and bid, the FD loaded.

[akhare]

Relays in unobstructed auctions are clearly superior in slam auctions, but imo they are inferior in most game bidding auctions though I'm sure that is debatable.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider relays inferior for game bidding?

 

Is it because they give away too much information to the defence and / or allow too many lead directing Xs? Isn't the problem solved by transfer oriented relay schemes, where the stronger hand will end up declaring more often that not (in which case the defence knows virtually nothing about declarer's hand)?

[neilkaz]

this is the thread jjbrr was talking about

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=35931

 

But you could just play the BBO precision system? It was composed by helene_t after a lot of polling on the forums. It is a completely alright system. You could just sit down with someone and bid, the FD loaded.

Is there a link to this BBO Precision?

 

Also it would be really nice to have a Precision room, ie like the ACOL room.

 

.. neilkaz ..

 

EDIT..forgive me for asking a newbish question, but I get the feeling that I don't know how to fully taking advantage of what is offered on BBO when I see stuff like loaded FD systems mentioned..etc etc

[Cascade]

Relays in unobstructed auctions are clearly superior in slam auctions, but imo they are inferior in most game bidding auctions though I'm sure that is debatable.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider relays inferior for game bidding?

 

Is it because they give away too much information to the defence and / or allow too many lead directing Xs? Isn't the problem solved by transfer oriented relay schemes, where the stronger hand will end up declaring more often that not (in which case the defence knows virtually nothing about declarer's hand)?

I would say because sometimes the correct game depends on more than just suit lengths. Unless you have some slam interest usually you stop the relays before getting any information about the location of partner's honour cards.

[the hog]

Someone posted notes for a simple meckwell light style strong club that was close to what many good pairs play. That's definitely my preference, particularly if you can find a partner to have lots of good agreements with and to discuss theory with and everything. It's a great system to customize for whatever you want it to be. It can either be really simple, or, if you prefer, you can really make it complicated and quite good, imo.

 

Others will tell you about all sorts of relay precision systems and CABs TABs and SABs and stuff, and I think those systems aren't as good. I've said it plenty of times before but I'll say it again. If your judgment in bidding is good, you don't need relays and stuff.

 

I think you'll really be happy with whatever you choose though.

And I have disagreed with you many times before and I will disagree with you again. How long have you played such systems, by the way?

[Free]

Relays in unobstructed auctions are clearly superior in slam auctions, but imo they are inferior in most game bidding auctions though I'm sure that is debatable.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider relays inferior for game bidding?

 

Is it because they give away too much information to the defence and / or allow too many lead directing Xs? Isn't the problem solved by transfer oriented relay schemes, where the stronger hand will end up declaring more often that not (in which case the defence knows virtually nothing about declarer's hand)?

You've played a lot of relays have you not?

 

Imo the biggest problem is when you have to bid to 3NT:

- bidding game with relays is easy if you have a fit. But this is so when bidding naturally.

- if you belong in 3NT you want to be sure you have stoppers (unless your name is whereagles :blink: ). Using relays you just can't ask about them. Playing relays, you only know the number of cards, not their value. With x opposite an unknown 3-card suit, is it enough to stop the suit? Or should you play 5m instead of 3NT? You have no idea, partner may have KQJ, he may have A32 or 432 as well.

- Playing natural you can rightside NT more often.

- Sometimes you even wrongside the contract and the unknown hand is dummy. Opps won't need any count signals.

 

This is probably one of the reasons why Paul Marston has the ability to use relays AND to bid natural (in transfer that is) after limited openings in MOSCITO.

[the hog]

No Frederick,

PM changed the system because he felt that semi positives were more valuable. This question of "wrong siding" a contract is really a nonsense.

 

Having said this, the ability to bid 1C 1Y - semi pos with S 4S is a big plus in that the opps know very little.

[slyq]

relay is only worth playing if incorperate breaks after balanced hands splinters and stoper ask then it is well worth while

[Free]

No Frederick,

PM changed the system because he felt that semi positives were more valuable. 

Please learn to read before responding with ridiculous irrelevant comments: I was talking about his LIMITED OPENINGS.

[akhare]

You've played a lot of relays have you not?

 

Imo the biggest problem is when you have to bid to 3NT:

- bidding game with relays is easy if you have a fit. But this is so when bidding naturally.

- if you belong in 3NT you want to be sure you have stoppers (unless your name is whereagles :) ).

Heh, heh, I would say 10 years is a lot of time, all right ;).

 

Indeed, as you and Wayne have pointed out, it sometimes agonizing to know that responder has the doubleton the "danger" suit, but there's aren't enough steps to resolve whether it's an issue.

 

However, these hands are too common, but I do worry a lot about giving the defence too much information. This is probably no worse than a verbose auction in a standard system, where the opps can infer declarer's shape...

[rbforster]

Indeed, as you and Wayne have pointed out, it sometimes agonizing to know that responder has the doubleton the "danger" suit, but there's aren't enough steps to resolve whether it's an issue.

 

However, these hands are too common, but I do worry a lot about giving the defence too much information. This is probably no worse than a verbose auction in a standard system, where the opps can infer declarer's shape...

I would say the danger suit is similarly obvious for most standard-vs-relay auctions, but the difference is that the standard auction players will have both had a chance bid NT with a stopper while the relay players will can be endplayed into bidding 3N without knowing if responder has a stopper. Also, the relayers may have had the wrong hand bid NT already, exposing a positional stopper.

 

At some point I restructured the TOSR balanced relays to cater to stopper asking, but I never actually played those continuations. It still can't be perfect, since some hands always zoom into making a high bid, but if you arrange for most of your major suit length to be shown sooner, it's possible for opener to make a relay break to ask for a specific stopper instead of relaying exact shape. When you're aiming for 3N, you normally aren't looking for partner's minor suit holdings - you normally just want to make sure you don't have an 8 card major fit and that you have min GF values. The TOSR Crash resolution doesn't really give this major suit information until the last bid.

[mycroft]

On the original topic, I would second Berkowitz and Manley (the Precision system I play is based off it), and avoiding (at least to start) relay and asking bid systems.

 

Not because they aren't good - again, the Precision system I play is full-on asking bid, and I'd love to learn a relay system at some point - but because there is a massive context switch required to "think Strong Club" - how to think after the good bids (1M, possibly different-range 1NT), the bad bids (1D in particular), the just plain different bids (2m). Never mind that you're learning three systems - when you don't open 1C (which is the rethinking above), when you open 1C and the opponents let you play, and when you open 1C at the table :-).

 

Once you're comfortable with all that, if you want to do the context switch required for a half-duplex system (where, as the strong hand, you make "all" the decisions), go ahead and try the relay or the asking-bid route.

 

I would see if I could get access to Rigal's book, too; but not to start. Put it away until you have a partnership that works, then use it to tweak stuff. BTW, I learned from Reese - good book, excellent for "thinking Precision"; but as outdated as "5 Weeks" is in a standard context (so you get the system, but no partners).

 

Edit: Oh, and get a copy of the GCC. It's worth actually having to hand when you have those questions...

[akhare]

On the original topic, I would second Berkowitz and Manley (the Precision system I play is based off it), and avoiding (at least to start) relay and asking bid systems.

A redundant third -- also, look at the excellent Revision Club notes here:

 

http://bridgewithdan.com/systems/revision_club_4th_ed.zip

[mikegill]

After having played TOSR for quite a few years now my opinions are

 

1) There are hands where relays are just better, period - slam bidding is much improved in particular. However, these hands are relatively rare because most people interfere liberally and your defense to that needs to be geared towards avoiding disaster not relaying to find your perfect slam.

 

2) We do play stopper asks and while it's by no means perfect, I can't remember the last time I was at a total guess as to what to do.

 

3) Relays lose somewhat in double dummy game bidding because you can't find out internal suit quality in partner's long suits or when he has Hx or something in your long suit. However, nobody has really mentioned that you also win back some (if not all) of those boards because they have to at least lead (when you occasionally wrongside) and, most of the time, defend with absolutely no idea what's in one of the two hands.

[PhantomSac]

Relays in unobstructed auctions are clearly superior in slam auctions, but imo they are inferior in most game bidding auctions though I'm sure that is debatable.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider relays inferior for game bidding?

 

Is it because they give away too much information to the defence and / or allow too many lead directing Xs? Isn't the problem solved by transfer oriented relay schemes, where the stronger hand will end up declaring more often that not (in which case the defence knows virtually nothing about declarer's hand)?

It seems like relays do a better job at getting the exact shape before 3N, but you often know nothing or little about honor location. I am not really talking about "stopper ask" type situations, I am just talking about hands where you need to know whether to play the 5-2 major suit fit (maybe if partner has Hx of your major) or the minor suit fit or 3N blah blah. Even if you can ask for a stopper it might not be good enough.

 

In general I think natural auctions get the most important parts of your shape across and allow you to diagnose honor location pretty well or just general suit orientedness, or whether partner has KJ or the A opposite my stiff (both are a stopper...). Often I don't care if partner is 5521 or 5512, I just want more honor location info before deciding which game to play once I know he is 5-5.

 

FWIW I have much more experience with naturalish strong club methods than something like TOSR where all my experience comes from partnership bidding heh, but that was my general impression of the differences in game bidding.

[nigel_k]

I'm from New Zealand (the home of symmetric relay) and quite a few of us have never played strong club without relays. So it can be done. If you are switching just because you'd like a change then obviously you can go with something simple. But if you are switching because you want to bid better then you are going to need agreements at least as complex as Symmetric. It has a learning curve but is actually quite relaxing once you get used to it. There are bad hands for relay systems, as others have said, but lots of good hands as well.

[slyq]

re phantom sac

generally ace empty especialy ace doubleton should not be treated as a stopper

nor often do you have to stoper ask before full shape is known splinters early oppisite 2- suited hands solve most other problems