Is it an "amber" psyche?

[jallerton]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sqj43hqdj4cj108765&w=s875h853da875caq9&e=sk92h9642d10963ck4&s=sa106hakj107dkq2c32]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

W N E S

P P 1♥ 1NT

P 3♣ P 3NT

P P P

 

3♣ was natural and invitational

 

Table result was 3NT+2, N/S +460

 

The E/W agreement for 1♥ opening bid is natural, "rule of 19".

 

The TD asked West why he did not double 1NT. He said that whilst he might have enough to defeat 1NT he was worried that doubling would persuade the opponents to run to a safer spot.

 

The TD asked West why he did not double 3NT. He said that he was confused because the auction did not make sense.

 

The TD asked East and West if their partnership had ever psyched a 1-level opener before. No was the reply.

 

The TD classified the psyche as "amber".

 

N/S appeal, on the basis that they believe it should be classified as "red". N/S claim that East has made psyches of this type before (though perhaps not with this partner) but the TD does not know of any written hand reports of any such psyches.

 

How would you rule if on the AC?

[gnasher]

Scarlet.

[bluejak]

Blood red.

[shintaro]

:)

 

I ain't seen many Redder

 

:unsure:

 

was it someone we know :)

[helene_t]

I am generally suspicious of regular partnerships that claim to "psyche". Here West knows that someone has deviated from the disclosed agreements. It can't be South since if his 1NT overcall was a psyche he would pass 3♣. But it could be North, suppose he meant 3♣ as to play. By assuming that it was East who deviated, I think West fielded the psyche.

 

What do those color codes mean btw? Have they to do with the degree of deviation? In that case this is a mild psyche, East has the normal shape for an Acol 1♥ opening and is only 5 points short of rule-of-19, probably less than 5 points short of a normal nonvul 3rd seat opening.

[mjj29]

What do those color codes mean btw?

They refer to the degree of fielding. A green psyche has definitely not been fielded, a red psyche definitely has, and gets an adjustment. An amber psyche is not adjusted for, but multiple amber psyches in the same event probably will be. If both members of a partnership psyche on the same board it is automatically at least amber.

 

The other colour which has been suggested is blue. A blue psyche is where one partner takes an action that would be considered fielding, but it turns out their partner hasn't psyched, an opponent has.

 

I am generally suspicious of regular partnerships that claim to "psyche".

Regular partnerships who psyche is not a problem per-se, but they do have to be very careful about not forming implicit agreements and not fielding. As it happens I don't psyche in my regular partnership, but this is mainly due to the fact that our artificial system means that it is likely to be less profitable rather than because I avoid doing so in established partnerships.

[jeremy69]

When West takes no action at all he is playing his man to have psyched. I would rule this to be red.

[Cascade]

I wouldn't automatically double 1NT.

 

Doubling 3NT is closer but I probably wouldn't with clubs being bid over me.

[aguahombre]

Oh, o.k. N/S have bid an 18 or 19 point combined holding 3NT, and you didn't field a psyche, but decided they can make 3NT. I am learning why committees don't always get it right and why polls are sometimes wrong.

 

Oh, now I get it. the Rule of 19 is the number of cards in hand plus the HCP.

[Cascade]

Are those comments addressed at me?

 

You are ignoring a substantial part of the evidence in the auction.

 

The opponents have a 15-18 NT and a partner who forced to game opposite that. That doesn't add up to 18-19 to me.

 

If the opponents have gone crazy then I find that I frequently do not need to double to get a good score (even if I could have got a better one with a double) and if partner has gone crazy then I need to avoid double to have any chance.

 

Doubling 1NT has other bad outcomes - not just that partner might have psyched.

 

Partner might have opened light not a psyche something subnormal like 8-10 hcp.

 

Partner might have a normal light opening 11-12 and we have nothing lucrative to gain by doubling.

 

Doubling enables the opponents to get out cheaply in more denominations - system may prevent them playing 2♣/♦ without the aid of our double.

 

Doubling 3NT would only come after the opponents have invited game and accepted which makes it very unlikely that NS have the 18-19 hcp you claim. Against a competent pair it is probably 100-1 against or worse that they have 18-19 hcp and against a weaker pair we might not need to double to win IMPs.

[jeremy69]

In what way did North force to game? The OP says

3♣ was natural and invitational

 

When you hold this sort of hand I am sure it can be wrong to double 1NT and 3NT and, of course, you believe them not partner when he has done it 43 times before. It just isn't a level playing field IMO when no action is taken on this sort of hand and it happens to coincide with partner having opened on complete tram tickets.

[Pict]

Don't completely understand this hand.

 

Does West's partner never open 1H with an opening hand?

[Cascade]

In what way did North force to game? The OP says

3♣ was natural and invitational

 

When you hold this sort of hand I am sure it can be wrong to double 1NT and 3NT and, of course, you believe them not partner when he has done it 43 times before. It just isn't a level playing field IMO when no action is taken on this sort of hand and it happens to coincide with partner having opened on complete tram tickets.

Sorry I corrected that reasoning later in my post but failed to edit the first few lines correctly.

 

Yes north was invitational and south accepted.

 

I suppose it is possible that north misbid but it is very unlikely that south doesnt have his bid on this auction. It would be really strange for south to psyche 1NT and then show a maximum.

[campboy]

Obviously red.

[bluejak]

Partner might have opened light not a psyche something subnormal like 8-10 hcp.

Either it is part of their declared methods to open on 8 to 10 [and we were not told so]

 

Or he has psyched if he has opened it on 8 to 10.

 

Furthermore, allowing for it to be 8 to 10 if not declared is a clear and obvious breach of Law 40.

[Cascade]

Partner might have opened light not a psyche something subnormal like 8-10 hcp.

Either it is part of their declared methods to open on 8 to 10 [and we were not told so]

 

Or he has psyched if he has opened it on 8 to 10.

 

Furthermore, allowing for it to be 8 to 10 if not declared is a clear and obvious breach of Law 40.

Partly agree partly disagree.

 

A psyche needs to be a gross violation. A minor violation is not a psyche. So I do not accept that either it is a declared method or it is a psyche. There is some middle ground.

 

Many players say "its just bridge" to open light in third seat. This includes many good players. Often this is not disclosed in any way and occasionally it violates system regulations. So possibly is deliberately not disclosed to circumvent those regulations.

 

We were not told what the pairs declared method were - sound or otherwise. It seems to be reasonably common that players "open light" in third seat although precisely what that means varies from partnership to partnership.

 

For the record in my partnership our convention card describes our reasonably light openings and then states that we might be lighter in third seat (and some other situations - favourable vul, both majors etc)

[mjj29]

Many players say "its just bridge" to open light in third seat. This includes many good players. Often this is not disclosed in any way and occasionally it violates system regulations. So possibly is deliberately not disclosed to circumvent those regulations.

And if it's not declared, then it's illegal, particularly if it violates system regulations (which are already more relaxed in third anyway, at least in the EBU). If partner always plays you for your disclosed strength then it's a psyche and you haven't fielded it. If you allow for partner to have a lighter than disclosed (or allowed) opening, then it's an undisclosed agreement and should be penalised.

[Cascade]

Many players say "its just bridge" to open light in third seat.  This includes many good players.  Often this is not disclosed in any way and occasionally it violates system regulations. So possibly is deliberately not disclosed to circumvent those regulations.

And if it's not declared, then it's illegal, particularly if it violates system regulations (which are already more relaxed in third anyway, at least in the EBU). If partner always plays you for your disclosed strength then it's a psyche and you haven't fielded it. If you allow for partner to have a lighter than disclosed (or allowed) opening, then it's an undisclosed agreement and should be penalised.

This is way too simplistic.

[Codo]

I agree with Wayne, that there are reaasons not to double 1 NT. But there are more reasons to double, so I would call it red too.

[campboy]

A psyche needs to be a gross violation. A minor violation is not a psyche. So I do not accept that either it is a declared method or it is a psyche. There is some middle ground.

Yes, that would be a deviation. But fielding a deviation is not permitted either. Orange book 6B7:

 

A partnership's actions following a deviation may provide evidence of an unauthorised understanding, but they are less likely to do so than after a psyche. As with psyches, deviations may be classified as Red, Amber or Green.

[bluejak]

I suppose it depends on what the hand is. People have argued here, on BLML, on RGB and elsewhere that light third in hand openers are deviations. But, typically, a player will pass

 

Jxx

T9xxx

KQJ

KJ

 

in first seat because it is a filthy opening bid [i would] then open

 

Jxx

T9xx

KQJ

Qxx

 

in third and claim it is a deviation. It is not: it is a psyche. It is gross.

 

Furthermore, there is no excuse in the EBU which has a method on the SC for showing light third in hand openers. So, if players do not fill it in, they do not play it, and 8 to 10 is gross.

 

;)

 

The real reason it is Red is that, despite fancy arguments of what can go wrong, if partner has his opening - and perhaps an opponent has not - you are throwing 500 or 800 away. I do not believe you are doing so because the hand might go poorly: you are doing so because you believe based on your experience that partner has psyched.

[hotShot]

It would have been a good idea to make this a bidding poll in an other part of the forum asking what to bid over 3NT.

That would give us an unbiased view how many people would pass.

 

My guess is, that it would be the "bigger half".

[campboy]

And what to do over 1NT, which I would have doubled without a second thought. To be fair, my agreements for minimum openers are about half a point stronger than "rule of 19".

 

Anyway, you can still do that. Probably not many of the people who do the polls in General Bridge have read this thread.

[campboy]

In fact (going back and looking at the auction), I think it is ridiculous not to double 1NT. Partner knows you are a passed hand, and you are happy to hear him pull if he has rubbish, as you would still expect to make 2H.

[Cascade]

In fact (going back and looking at the auction), I think it is ridiculous not to double 1NT. Partner knows you are a passed hand, and you are happy to hear him pull if he has rubbish, as you would still expect to make 2H.

Do you expect him to pull to a five card suit?

 

What about an ordinary 5-4?