Fluffy Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 I was just wondering, is there any strong hand worth being played as an alternative in the 2♦ multi when playing a strong club system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 If you don't play 1C 1D 1H as forcing, then yes, you could include a 20-21 point hand in 2D. This makes 1C 1D 2NT 22-23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 I don't think I'd include a strong hand in Multi. If you did, you couldn't have auctions like...2D-P (diamond bust)2D-4H-p/c Also, a 2D that is a big NT means that you're preempting your own auction. 2N is often called "the slam killer" because you can't find fits cheaply. Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :blink: but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. Also, don't be tempted to put strong 4441s there. Too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :blink: but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ... They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :blink: but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ... They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors. I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :blink: but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ... They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors. I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted. They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :blink: but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ... They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors. I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted. They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason. Really? They don't play 9-12 at favorable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 No, they play 14-16, and in some situations 15-17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :blink: but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ... They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors. I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted. They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason. Really? They don't play 9-12 at favorable? Long ago scratched...seems like you have a quite old version of their system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 I was just wondering, is there any strong hand worth being played as an alternative in the 2♦ multi when playing a strong club system?Seems like it is easy to come up with reasons why you might not want to do this, but I must admit I am not entirely convinced. The Hog's point about whether or not 1♣-1♦;1♥ is forcing is an important one, I think. I don't play this as forcing since my strong club is actually a two-way club and we need a way of stopping with the weaker hands, and I think the option of including a strong balanced hand in the multi is very helpful. It is all very well to call strong 2N bids "slam killers" but it is even worse if you need to jump to 3N after 1♣-1♦ to show, say, 24-25 - putting one of the ranges within the multi avoids this. I'm also not convinced by the warning to avoid strong 4441s. On some hands you will certainly risk getting uncomfortably high, but at least you will have a fair idea of the most playable (least unplayable?) contract. And, of course, one of the main reasons for including such hands within the multi is not just to help get these hands across but also to rule them out in auctions that don't start with the multi... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright :D but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ... They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors. I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted. They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason. Really? They don't play 9-12 at favorable? Long ago scratched...seems like you have a quite old version of their system. Yes. The notes are way old but I don't know where to find new ones. Thanks for the update. I won't bother trying to play the weak NT fav now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 google for "ecats bridge" and you'll find their CC from the 2009 Bermuda Bowl in the document store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamHenry Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Yes. The notes are way old but I don't know where to find new ones. Thanks for the update. I won't bother trying to play the weak NT fav now. I don't know what strength opponents you play against; I'm a middling club player myself and only rarely play against anyone any good. The 9-11 NT that we play is a big winner against the weaker opps, and still gains against the intermediate/advanced players. If you have weak opponents, I'd recommend it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtrain Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 The major reason Meckwell dropped the 10-12 NT was that it distorted their constructive auctions. Dropping the other NT ranges 1 point was something they found was major negative. Multi is another thing entirely. The reasons that Multi and transfer preempts were dropped are numerous, and clear regardless of system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 The major reason Meckwell dropped the 10-12 NT was that it distorted their constructive auctions. Dropping the other NT ranges 1 point was something they found was major negative. Multi is another thing entirely. The reasons that Multi and transfer preempts were dropped are numerous, and clear regardless of system. But they could have just gone 1N=11-13 and 1D-1M, 1N=14-16 and it wouldn't have impacted their club at all. Weak NTs tend to destroy everyone's auctions. They might have concluded that they were hurt more than the opponents. I'm glad to know they only use strong NT 'cause I like the 14-16 (or good 13-bad 16) at all vulnerabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 But they could have just gone 1N=11-13 and 1D-1M, 1N=14-16 and it wouldn't have impacted their club at all. Weak NTs tend to destroy everyone's auctions. They might have concluded that they were hurt more than the opponents. I'm glad to know they only use strong NT 'cause I like the 14-16 (or good 13-bad 16) at all vulnerabilities. Has anyone looked at the following study of NT ranges? http://www.migry.com/Articles%20and%20othe...he%20winner.pdf Personally, I find it difficult to see how 10-13 (or even 11-13) can be bad for us at favorable, but I don't have any concrete data to back it up. Edit: The obvious downside is when we don't buy the contract and they land in a vulnerable game, which they can play nearly DD, but how often does that happen? Besides, wouldn't the 12-13 point balanced hands be opened at the other table anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtrain Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 It's not the weak NT range - it's the fact that balanced 16s have to be included in the 1C opener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Has anyone looked at the following study of NT ranges? http://www.migry.com/Articles%20and%20othe...he%20winner.pdf I don't think this study answers whether it is better to play weak or strong NTs. It possibly answers the question "Which NT range gains the most IMPs on average" but 1) it assumes that the caliber of players is even for the different ranges when it's possible that (for example) folks who open 10-12 are stronger than folks who open 16-18 and 2) it doesn't break down the results by vulnerability (at least for us). Even if we accept that 10-12 picks up more IMPs on average than other ranges, the study doesn't show what happens when 10-12ers bid their other balanced hands. One has to look at both together. How much better did we do on the weak NTs vs how much worse did we do opening 1 of a suit with the strong NTs. Probably 10-12 NV was a big winner for Meckwell when they opened 1N, but they probably comparatively lost on 1C and 1D openings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 I was just wondering, is there any strong hand worth being played as an alternative in the 2♦ multi when playing a strong club system? The original version of multi I learned had a strong 4441 variant of 15-24 hcp. You probably won't need such a wide range playing strong club, so you might want to do something like 19+ (with less, bid via 1♣). The other option is, as others said, to dump some big NT hand there, though I really think if you could do with no strong hand, just leave it open, so that pard can pass 2♦ and wreck some havoc every now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 The major reason Meckwell dropped the 10-12 NT was that it distorted their constructive auctions. Dropping the other NT ranges 1 point was something they found was major negative. Multi is another thing entirely. The reasons that Multi and transfer preempts were dropped are numerous, and clear regardless of system. But they could have just gone 1N=11-13 and 1D-1M, 1N=14-16 and it wouldn't have impacted their club at all. Weak NTs tend to destroy everyone's auctions. They might have concluded that they were hurt more than the opponents. I'm glad to know they only use strong NT 'cause I like the 14-16 (or good 13-bad 16) at all vulnerabilities. Not sure about this, but maybe they had problems with competitive auctions after 1♦ when playing mini NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukmoi Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Here it is common to use balanced 21-23 hcp as a part of multi. It is true that you cant pass 2♦ using that but IMO that is not much of a loss. And it frees 2NT for some other "wonderfull" use like bad pre-emt in a minor. Disadvantage of multi is that normal weak twos are more effective enableing responder to bid direct 4M more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 I see, passing 2♦ is good so you don't want a storng option. We are handling all strong NT hands, so not a problem there, in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands. Maybe a strong hand with diamonds then?, something very precise like solid diamonds with spade void and something else could be playable :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 25, 2010 Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 I see, passing 2♦ is good so you don't want a storng option. We are handling all strong NT hands, so not a problem there, in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands. Maybe a strong hand with diamonds then?, something very precise like solid diamonds with spade void and something else could be playable :) The main advantage of not including strong hands is the ability for responder to preempt heavily. Being able to pass 2♦ is a nice bonus, but is not why you play minimulti in the first place. Suppose you have 4-4M and partner opens 2♦, you can bid at 4-level without problems. Include a strong balanced hand (or strong with a m or whatever) and you can't do that anymore. The only strong hand types you might want to consider are strong singlesuiters in a Major (or perhaps 2-suiters with at least 1 Major). Now responder can still preempt, hopefully opener won't have problems now. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukmoi Posted February 25, 2010 Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 We allways pre-empt heavily assuming opener has the weak variation. Admittedly 2♦-4♥-4NT is not a thing of beauty but it never seem to go that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 25, 2010 Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 We allways pre-empt heavily assuming opener has the weak variation. Admittedly 2♦-4♥-4NT is not a thing of beauty but it never seem to go that way. You clearly don't play enough, or shuffle poorly :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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