A GF auction

[andy_h]

Unopposed auction:

 

1♥-1♠

3♣-3♠

4♣-4♦

4♥-

 

- 3♣ is GF, can be a fragment with those self suited hands

 

How do you play 4♦ and 4♥? Based on your answer, what do responder's 4♠, 4NT, 5♣ now mean?

[gnasher]

By responder: 4♦ agrees clubs without saying anything about diamond control. 4♥ and 4♠ are to play.

 

After responder bids 4♦: 4♥ or 4♠ by either hand is a cue-bid, 4NT by either hand is Keycard, and 5♣ by either hand is an attempted signoff.

[kenrexford]

That's a tough one.

 

I'm not sure how my regular partners would view this, but ...

 

4♦ = agree that shows club support

4♥ = should be RKCB, IMO, but I play cheapest out-of-focus major as RKCB. Responder's options, therefore, are answers

 

If 4NT is always RKCB, then 4♥ would be a cue, and any call by Responder except 4NT is a cue.

 

If no RKCB (playable), then all calls above 4♦ are cues, including 4NT.

[Pict]

4D - slam interest with club support, diamond position unspecified.

 

4H - cue in hearts, with losers in diamonds.

 

Now from responder, 4S is a place to play, five clubs sign off, 4NT RKC - right siding a potential 6NT.

[jdonn]

That's a tough one.

 

I'm not sure how my regular partners would view this, but ...

 

4♦ = agree that shows club support

4♥ = should be RKCB, IMO, but I play cheapest out-of-focus major as RKCB.  Responder's options, therefore, are answers

 

If 4NT is always RKCB, then 4♥ would be a cue, and any call by Responder except 4NT is a cue.

 

If no RKCB (playable), then all calls above 4♦ are cues, including 4NT.

Ken how do you bid Axxxxx K xxxxx x over 4♣? Or do you not rebid 3♠?

 

What I'm really asking is, is there really no such hand for you as one that would rebid spades and then preference to hearts on the third round? They must all rebid 3♦ or 3♥ on the second round, or bid spades a third time?

[Pict]

Surprised so few posts.

 

It's an interesting situation where it's not clear who should be driving the auction. Maybe it is all too obvious (?).

 

We are not really waiting for ... are we.

[jdonn]

Surprised so few posts.

 

It's an interesting situation where it's not clear who should be driving the auction. Maybe it is all too obvious (?).

 

We are not really waiting for ... are we.

It's pretty obvious 4♥ and 4♠ should be natural. And with that being said 4♦ is the only slam try in clubs and therefore can't promise a diamond control. There isn't that much more to say about it really.

[PhantomSac]

It's pretty obvious 4♥ and 4♠ should be natural. And with that being said 4♦ is the only slam try in clubs and therefore can't promise a diamond control. There isn't that much more to say about it really.

Not really, one might reasonably argue that something like 6223 would want to bid 4D choice of games as opener might have 2515, or x6x5, and responder wouldn't necessarily want to commit with 4H on 2 small. Even if opener was 1525, the 5-2 heart fit might be better. Alternatively choice of games might be useful even with 6133 or such, planning to convert 4H to 4S to offer a choice in the blacks.

 

If one wanted to use 4D as COG here, they could use 4N as a slam try in clubs, or they could use 4D then 4N or 4D then 5C as a slam try in clubs.

 

If one played 4D as a slam try in clubs would they use 4N as natural or keycard for clubs? Open for discussion, I was thinking natural though.

 

Also, one might argue that there is no bid for a hand too good to bid 4S here, and 4D might contain spade one suiters with diamond controls, leaving a jump to 5S to show spade one suiters without diamond controls. One might also argue that with no diamond control it's very hard to have a 5S bid, so you could just bid 5S and assume that hand has a diamond control...it's not really clear.

 

If you play 4D as a slam try in clubs you could easily argue that 4H over that should be natural anyways showing 6-5, it's not clear that 4H in this auction is just a cuebid. I mean how useful is cuebidding here anyways, you basically just need a slam try that shows a diamond control, and keycard, and maybe a slam try that shows no diamond control. It seems like 4H could still be your best spot even if partner was coming in clubs. If not playing 4H as natural then it seems something like 4H=keycard, 4S=slam try with diamond control, 4N= slam try with no diamond control 5C=worst would be a pretty reasonable scheme. If using 4H as natural then I guess 4S=keycard, 4N=last train (usually diamond control and not enough to keycard) 5C=worst would make sense.

 

W/e I think there's a lot to discuss but I think the main issues are whether 4D is COG or slam try in clubs or potentially both, and what does 4N mean, and over 4D if it were a club slam try, what would 4H mean.

 

Personally I'm very surprised because this forum and especially gnasher are usually very pro COG cue, and I am usually very against it, but it makes a lot of sense to me here when you still have 3 possible fits.

[PhantomSac]

BTW this auction gave me a headache, pretty sure I think COG is the best way to play here with 4N being a club slam try, however I'm pretty sure in all of my regular partnerships 4D would be a slam try in clubs based on our general agreements.

 

I *think* 4H would then be natural over 4D showing 6-5, and 4S and 4N would be used as slam moves (in one partnership 4S keycard, 4N last train, in the other 4N keycard, 4S last train, pretty much showing a diamond control) under my general agreements, but think maybe giving up on playing 4H might be better (enabling 2 non keycard slam tries, one showing a D control one denying one).

 

Having good general agreements is the best way to navigate through an auction like this that is very likely to be undiscussed. Even if those agreements lead you to play something that you think might be theoretically slightly inferior, at least you know what you're doing.

[jdonn]

I didn't mean not to discuss followups...

 

As for COG I don't think it's that useful here. Opener should usually be raising spades with a doubleton since 3♠ should definitely show 6. Also the 4♣ bid implies (not promises of course) good suits since 5-5 hands with worse suits that can't raise spades would probably bid 3NT instead. Maybe there should be COG between hearts and clubs but how often will going up a level be 2 tricks better and where you can also tell you don't want to look for slam?

 

Also it seems pretty obvious over 4♣ that, assuming 4♦ agrees clubs, 4NT instead would be natural.

 

If you're going to come up with some fancy improvement I would suggest 4♦ as an end-signal requesting opener bid 4♥ so you can sign off in any game, with everything else being a slam try in that (or some) strain. Of course I don't consider that very practical but I would seriously bet it's pretty close to the best way to handle this particular auction in theory, since you can sign off or make a slam try in anything including notrump.

[PhantomSac]

Gaining a slam try in hearts and spades at the 4 level at the expense of having accurate slam bidding in clubs seems pretty terrible.

 

1) You pretty much never have a slam try in hearts since you would have bid 3H to begin with. There are maybe some 6232 hands that qualify, but they're rare.

 

2) You need a massive hand and great suit to have a slam try in spades since partner could have a spade void etc.

 

Even if you have those hands you might survive forcing to the 5 level.

 

On the other hand

 

3) If you have a slam try it's very likely to be in clubs, the one suit you can know you have a fit in. If this is the case, you will often need room to

 

3a) Resolve diamond controls by either side (the unbid suit)

 

3b) Eventually bid keycard in clubs (your suit), yes sometimes keycard is necessary, especially to bid 7.

 

Sacrificing a bunch of 3 to gain 1 and 2 seems bad.

 

Not to mention you still have no bid for outright slam forcing hands.

 

3S definitely showing 6 seems bizarre, but I guess if you believe that then having a COG cue is indeed not very important.

[jdonn]

3S definitely showing 6 seems bizarre, but I guess if you believe that then having a COG cue is indeed not very important.

Only because the JS was into clubs so there is a free 3♦ bid. It wouldn't promise 6 after 3♦ although it still usually would be.

[PhantomSac]

3S definitely showing 6 seems bizarre, but I guess if you believe that then having a COG cue is indeed not very important.

Only because the JS was into clubs so there is a free 3♦ bid. It wouldn't promise 6 after 3♦ although it still usually would be.

Yeah maybe you are the one who's normal, I still like 3D as natural when I have eg xxxx x KQTxx xxx or whatever which has a big impact on my 3S bids obv.

[kenrexford]

That's a tough one.

 

I'm not sure how my regular partners would view this, but ...

 

4♦ = agree that shows club support

4♥ = should be RKCB, IMO, but I play cheapest out-of-focus major as RKCB.  Responder's options, therefore, are answers

 

If 4NT is always RKCB, then 4♥ would be a cue, and any call by Responder except 4NT is a cue.

 

If no RKCB (playable), then all calls above 4♦ are cues, including 4NT.

Ken how do you bid Axxxxx K xxxxx x over 4♣? Or do you not rebid 3♠?

 

What I'm really asking is, is there really no such hand for you as one that would rebid spades and then preference to hearts on the third round? They must all rebid 3♦ or 3♥ on the second round, or bid spades a third time?

I would bid spades, and then bid spades, and then preference hearts. Not sure of the problem. I would NOT bid 4D as a club cue, though.

[jdonn]

That's a tough one.

 

I'm not sure how my regular partners would view this, but ...

 

4♦ = agree that shows club support

4♥ = should be RKCB, IMO, but I play cheapest out-of-focus major as RKCB.  Responder's options, therefore, are answers

 

If 4NT is always RKCB, then 4♥ would be a cue, and any call by Responder except 4NT is a cue.

 

If no RKCB (playable), then all calls above 4♦ are cues, including 4NT.

Ken how do you bid Axxxxx K xxxxx x over 4♣? Or do you not rebid 3♠?

 

What I'm really asking is, is there really no such hand for you as one that would rebid spades and then preference to hearts on the third round? They must all rebid 3♦ or 3♥ on the second round, or bid spades a third time?

I would bid spades, and then bid spades, and then preference hearts. Not sure of the problem. I would NOT bid 4D as a club cue, though.

Didn't you just say you play 4♥ is RKC? Or am I going crazy again?

[PhantomSac]

I think he meant 4H after 4D

[kenrexford]

I said that 4♥ by Opener would be RKCB for clubs if Responder bids 4♦. Maybe I got confused, but that's what I meant. I was looking at the auction where Responder did bid 4♦ and then Opener did bid 4♥, and so I thought the actual bids were being discussed.

 

In retrospect, though, I'm still not sure which major or majors, if either, are out of focus. I could see a reason for Opener to suggest heart back, or suggest spades back even. But, you need to have some rules here, and if Responder makes a slam try in clubs, then I suppose you just have to live with that strain. Hence, hearts are out of focus.

[mike777]

Unopposed auction:

 

1♥-1♠

3♣-3♠

4♣-4♦

4♥-

 

- 3♣ is GF, can be a fragment with those self suited hands

 

How do you play 4♦ and 4♥? Based on your answer, what do responder's 4♠, 4NT, 5♣ now mean?

I play 4d is rkc for clubs.... it is the only way to rkc in clubs.

 

4h=0-3

 

over 4h 4s would be Queen ask.

over 4h 4nt is a D cuebid.

over 4h 5c would be to play.

[Fluffy]

4♣ is a cue with spades agreed? :), my meta agreements would say yes, but common sense says the contrary.

 

 

If after 3♠ either west or east knows that spades is the right strain they both have to hide it and fake a fictional fit in clubs, but later stablishing the contract in spades.

 

COG is playable, you have a decent bid for slam trys in clubs: 6♣

[PhantomSac]

If after 3♠ either west or east knows that spades is the right strain they both have to hide it and fake a fictional fit in clubs, but later stablishing the contract in spades.

Huh? If west loves spades he can just bid 4D over 3S. Why would rebidding his suit be coming in spades?

[Fluffy]

mmm, dunno lol.

[kenrexford]

If after 3♠ either west or east knows that spades is the right strain they both have to hide it and fake a fictional fit in clubs, but later stablishing the contract in spades.

Huh? If west loves spades he can just bid 4D over 3S. Why would rebidding his suit be coming in spades?

Yeah, this sounds rather odd.

 

If either side knows that spades should be trumps, then there is no way to say that except to show clubs, temporarily burying the spades, and then later emerging with a revealing spade bid.

 

What?!?!?

 

I thought I was esoteric. :blink:

[straube]

I like 4D as COG. The "I don't know what to do" bid gives more meaning to every other bid. Ed Mansfield wrote an article on how using the opponent's cue bid in this manner improved the auctions and I've used it successfully myself. He didn't talk about using an impossible strain in the same manner, but the opponents shouldn't have to have overcalled for us to use their suit to our benefit. Ed Mansfield also discussed the relative unimportance of having keycard in such auctions (where two or three strains are possible). He didn't say it was unimportant, but that it was less important. Also, while 4D threatens to pass an acceptable strain, partner can force with 5D to say "We're going to slam. Bid the first strain that you would consider."

[Fluffy]

If after 3♠ either west or east knows that spades is the right strain they both have to hide it and fake a fictional fit in clubs, but later stablishing the contract in spades.

Huh? If west loves spades he can just bid 4D over 3S. Why would rebidding his suit be coming in spades?

Yeah, this sounds rather odd.

 

If either side knows that spades should be trumps, then there is no way to say that except to show clubs, temporarily burying the spades, and then later emerging with a revealing spade bid.

 

What?!?!?

 

I thought I was esoteric. :(

bah leave me alone, it was 4 am :)

[jchiu]

Of the five calls there, natural except 4N, which would be keycard for hearts.