maybe next time

[kenberg]

At the table I made the wrong choice. As I thought it over, I think next tiem I would choose differently, perhaps again wrongly. So I ask your views:

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=s3hak84dakjt9ckq9]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦ 1♥ Pass 1♠

2♥ Pass 3♣ Pass

?[/hv]

 

Of course if you don't care for my 2♥ bid feel free to say so but I have not been rethinking that one, I'm happy enough with it.

[hanp]

I don't care for your 2H bid, I would double.

[jdonn]

I also double 1♠.

[kenberg]

OK, maybe I need to rethink the 2♥ bid. Here was my thinking: I would like to get to 3NT if it is right. With my AK of hearts and the heart bid on my left, NT will never occur to partner unless I announce my heart stop. Although undiscussed, I assumed that with opps bidding two suits I bid the stop I have, not the one I haven't.

 

A penalty pass of X, with a partner who could neither bid 1♠ nor double over 1♥ seemed unlikely to me. You are looking for penalties here?

[aguahombre]

Ken: Maybe, you should not rethink 2H. Reversing your majors and keeping your thoughts, would you double 1S or bid 2S?

 

In other words, your logic seems reasonable. And if partner can picture a mountain with about this shape, It is workable.

[jdonn]

Double shows a good hand. Even though your hand is really good I don't think you have enough offense for 2♥, it sounds like a lot more playing strength. Nothing will prevent you from bidding 2♥ on the next round, or 3♥ if the auction is higher but partner acts in competition. Besides 3♣ was the most likely thing for partner to bid so you knowingly gave yourself a bidding problem.

[Bbradley62]

When you're choosing your 2♥ call, what might partner have to make 3N right and biddable?

[hanp]

I'm not looking for a penalty, I'm just describing my hand.

[cherdanno]

OK, maybe I need to rethink the 2♥ bid. Here was my thinking: I would like to get to 3NT if it is right. With my AK of hearts and the heart bid on my left, NT will never occur to partner unless I announce my heart stop. Although undiscussed, I assumed that with opps bidding two suits I bid the stop I have, not the one I haven't.

 

A penalty pass of X, with a partner who could neither bid 1♠ nor double over 1♥ seemed unlikely to me. You are looking for penalties here?

For 2♥ I would assume a strong one-suited hand, probably with running diamonds and a stop in hearts. For double, I would assume a strong hand with takeout shape. Clearly double describes your shape better, and also allows for an easier stop if partner has truly nothing (I assume 2♥ is GF).

On your auction, after 3♣ I find it obvious to raise, as we have much better clubs than promised, and play for 5♣ opposite xxx xxx xx Jxxxx.

[aguahombre]

Cher: Can 2H really be a game force after opening 1m and getting no response yet from partner?

[kenberg]

Having a double stop in hearts and a stiff spot in spades I thought that 2H was more descriptive than double. But I am treating the idea that I lack the values with seriousness. It's a pretty good hand, but a spade stop alone will not bring in 3NT. So maybe it is an overbid. Still, partner could have a little over there and just not have a convenient bid over 1H.

 

 

I don't think of 2♥ as a game force but rahter as a very srong bid showing a heart stop, presunmably not a spade stop, and good values. The opps asked for an explanation and this is pretty much what I told the, Actually I think I said heart stop and values. But I would like to hear more opinions about this also.

 

A little resulting now:

 

 

3NT was bid and made at the other table, played from my side with bidding that started with 2♣. And you folks think 2♥ is an overbid! The opening lead (a small heart from QJ9xx) made it easy for declarer but I was thinking it could be made, with luck, even with the opening lead of the Q if hearts. Upon reflection I still believe this to be true but it requires so much luck in spot cards and shape that I no longer claim I wish I had guided us to it. And 5♣ is down on decent defense also: Ace of clubs and another, and when I lead the spade W hops up and plays another club. I can make this tougher by winning the second club in hand (N in clubs) and leading the Queen. If E plays his ace, I believe the contract comes in.

 

The cards lie vary favorably for our side and 1♠ doubled goes for 300, maybe 500.

 

So double seems to be right.

 

Here are the hands:

 

 

 

[hv=n=sqj975ht2d5cjt743&w=skthqj965dq72c852&e=sa8642h73d8643ca6&s=s3hak84dakjt9ckq9]399|300|[/hv]

 

Playing 3NT the first break is that the club ace has only one spot card with it. Still, that means 8 tricks not 9. With a little bit of luck you might bring in 9. With double dummy play I think you can always bring in 9. The most obvious approach (seeing all the hands) is to try for an endplay.On some defenses this should be fairly easy to bring off but on others it gets tricky. There are many lines and I think I have looked over most of the main ones. I absolutely do not claim some of these lines would be taken at the table. Here is a sampler (it's snowing again here so I have nothing else to do. I can see why others might use their time more productively.)

 

 

 

The toughest defense appears (to me) to be Q of hearts ducked (or if played by N then heart to the Q), J of hearts taken, K of clubs ducked, Q taken, diamond through. However declarer can then run the clubs. This seems to bring in the contract no matter what the opponents do. It's complicated, but I believe I am right. After 8 tricks, S comes down to KJT of diamonds and A8 of hearts. W has to totally abandon spades or else he establishes one of the red suits. There is no entry to the red suits but if, say, W holds the bare king then declarer can play a small spade. Either W is in and has to lead a red, or E goes up and after the crash there are enough spade tricks. If W sheds both spades then E cannot succeed by saving all spades as he is just barely outspotted. But if he saves a diamond for an exit, takes the first spade, planning to exit with a diamond, S throws the ten of diamonds and hops up with the king on the diamond play. if the Q drops, fine, he cashes the J. If not, he plays the J and W is endplayed in hearts. There are other variations. I suppose this squeeze/throw-in ending has a name but I don't know it.

 

 

As you can see, this all seems to depend firstly on the ace of clubs being singly guarded. Then for the hearts, the 8 plays a key role after the Q duck and J continuation. North's spade spots have to be strong, and W must hold something akin to the AT. And then declarer must choose this line.

 

If E doesn't find the entry killing diamond play when in with the club, I think it gets easier.

 

Doubling is looking seriously like a better call.

 

Oh. over 3♣ I bid 3♦, making.

[hanp]

Didn't think 2H was an overbid, I thought it was a misbid.

[gnasher]

I think that partner should bid 1♠, and I'd prefer to be in 5♣ than 3NT.

[kenberg]

I think that partner should bid 1♠, and I'd prefer to be in 5♣ than 3NT.

If the contract is 5C played N and the opening lead is a heart, which on the auction is probable, the contract can be made and probably will be, or so I think. Edit. On reflection, I am not so sure of that. Dn1, it appears. Oh well.

[jdonn]

Didn't think 2H was an overbid, I thought it was a misbid.

Right I thought I said that too.

[Dirk Kuijt]

FWIW

 

I investigated this hand with Deep Finesse. South can always make 3NT; however, on the lead of a top heart, South must win and force out the A of clubs. If South ducks the opening lead, then the defense can prevail (double dummy) with the spectacular lead of the King of Spades next! When that holds, West must shift back to the other top Heart!

 

Obvious

[kenberg]

FWIW

 

I investigated this hand with Deep Finesse. South can always make 3NT; however, on the lead of a top heart, South must win and force out the A of clubs. If South ducks the opening lead, then the defense can prevail (double dummy) with the spectacular lead of the King of Spades next! When that holds, West must shift back to the other top Heart!

 

Obvious

Well, guess I wouldn't have made 3N. I haven't worked it through but I suppose DF is right, it pretty much always is. After the duck, theking of spades, a switch back to hearts that has to be taken, the clubs with a diamond through to mess up entries. Huh!

 

I had thought that an immediate take of the heart would cause problems as well. I think I can see my error but I haven't checked ot out completely.

 

 

Thanks, I really appreciate this.

 

I guess I will double next time. Maybe.

[helene_t]

I was N and didn't find any of my three calls particularly easy. First pass, I thought with no prime cards and a stiff in p's suit my hand could be absolutely worthless. But having made that decision I should probably try to show some life later.

 

I though 2♥ showed long diamonds and considered bidding 3♦ over 2♥. I think the reason I bid 3♣ was that I wasn't 100% confident that Ken had long diamonds. Also I thought that if I made a positive bid (like 2NT, this is not a Lebensohl situation) at this turn I would be showing a trap pass on hearts. Maybe I am wrong about this.

 

3rd turn I was afraid that diamonds wouldn't run opposite my singleton, but that is probably too pessimistic. I think I should have bid 3NT at this point.

[mich-b]

About the sequence :

 

1X - (1Y)- P - (1Z or 2Z)

Dbl

 

I think it makes sense to play it as takeout of Y , showing some length in Z, obviously with extra values.

This leaves us better placed to extract a penalty, when pd has a "weakish" trap pass of Y. If Double here is takeout of either/both Y/Z , pd will never be in a position to pass for penalties.

[gnasher]

I think that partner should bid 1♠, and I'd prefer to be in 5♣ than 3NT.

If the contract is 5C played N and the opening lead is a heart, which on the auction is probable, the contract can be made and probably will be, or so I think. Edit. On reflection, I am not so sure of that. Dn1, it appears. Oh well.

I meant that looking at the two hands 5♣ is a better contract.

[kenberg]

If I double I imagine Helene might pass. Not much in points but very good spades. We would do very well. But at least one of the advocates of doubling has said that he is not really penalty seeking but rather just "describing his hand". My thinking was, and to a large extent still is, that if partner could not bid spades or double over 1H then a penalty pass will not often be forthcoming. So I agree with the purpose of describing rather than penalty seeking, but I want to explore further.

 

mich-b seems to at least partly share my doubt about the double being descriptive, although I am not sure we agree on details beyond that. His formula would make a double in this sequence a take-out of hearts. Saying that the double describes my actual hand seems to make it a take-out of spades. It seems to me that on this auction I will sometimes have hearts, sometimes have spades, sometimes a good hand with something of a balance in my hearts and spades. I don't see how double can show all of these, so my thought was that when my major strength is highly unbalanced I would cue where my values are. Simple-minded maybe, but it doesn't sound completely crazy.

 

Where I now feel I was wrong is that the cue should be based on a hand where if partner can stop spades we probably have nine tricks. My hand does not qualify. This could often be on a running suit but I don't see why it has to be. My explanation to the opps was "heart stop and values" which seems right, but more values would be nice. Make my ten of diamonds into the queen, for example. Still a little iffy maybe but then turn a small club into a small diamond and voila, I think.

 

 

As a play hand in 3NT it is quite interesting. I got it wrong looking at all four hands, not that that proves anything. In particular, it appears that 3NT can be beaten if played from the N side. Can be beaten and would be beaten are different, of course.

[hanp]

Kenberg, I must disappoint you because I will never come close to writing stories as long as yours. It would make my head spin to think like that at the table. Two short points:

 

- Either the opponents have a spade fit or partner is quite weak. If I double and the opponents raise spades, I can double again and partner will have a good idea of my hand, both in terms of strength and shape.

 

- I cannot remember ever having bid or discussed 2H or 2S in this auction. I don't know exactly what kind of hand either should show, nor what any of partner's bids will mean exactly. What I do know is that partner won't be sure what I mean with it.

 

- Alerting is about agreements. Since you had not discussed this auction or had any reason to expect that partner knew how you intended your bid, you should not alert. I imagine that you meant your explanation as a courtesy to your oppponents, but it might also be seen as a lie and it could certainly be misleading.

[kenberg]

This issue of self-alerts has been discussed many times. If I open 2H and the opponents ask what sort of suit quality is promised, I think "no agreement" is a perfectly sensible answer except in the few online games where I have an agreement. With artificial bids I feel, and I think most feel, differently. I would not bid 2H unless I had some reasonable expectation that partner will have some idea of what I intend. Of course if we have not discussed it then this may not work out. I did not post an alert originally but one opponent or the other clicked on the bid, a request for the meaning came up, and I described what I intended.

 

I agree that for accuracy I should have said "Intended to show a heart stop and values". Usually I include "Intended" in such circumstances, this time I did not. Had I included "Intended" I don't see how it can be misleading if I say I am intending to show a heart stop and good values and I have a heart stop and good values.

[Jlall]

o hai.

 

2H shows a heart stopper and long running diamonds.

2S would show a spade stopper and long running diamonds.

2N would show stoppers + running diamonds.

 

This is because it is only 1 suiters that can cuebid or jump in NT.

 

Balanced 18-19s would typically bid 1N.

 

Minor suit oriented hands with extreme shape would bid some number of clubs. 3C would be very strong, 4C would be the nuts and probably at least 6-5 minors. 2C would be 5-5.

 

Other minor suit oriented hands woudl start with X. This includes 5-4 with significant extra values, or maybe a 4-4 18-19 balanced hand that didn't want to bid 1N.

 

This 20 count is not a balanced hand or a 1 suiter. It is a "minor suit oriented" hand with lots of extra values. So we start with double, though it's a bit flawed, and we go from there.

[kenberg]

Thanks, sounds right.